Calgary & Saskatoon & Vancouver & TSAC
| Topic: Canadian Nationals Single or Double elimination? |
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Please read the thread on www.tablesoccerca.ning.ca before replying to this question. |
Posted: Aug 3 2009 9:55PM
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ok |
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here's the link to the discussion: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/canadian-nationals-double-or |
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Im against single elimination,it doesnt give the best players a chance to redeem themselves if they loose the first match, and will discourage weaker players to even enter an event higher than their ranking. Its nice to have that 1 free lifeline.So you can regroup and make the adjustments needed. I think all open events should be 3 out of 5, both sides. Everything else should be 2 out of 3. Have only 3 divisions, Amatuer-Semi & Open. When Jason B.(saskatoon) & i ran tournaments in Calgary,he understood that you have to cater to the Pro's even though he was a Semipro. Not to be disrespectfull, but thats how it is. |
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I'm not sure if you have seen the flier yet Ivor, I have it posted at www.foosball.com/schedule under the link on Canadian Table Soccer Nationals. You actually have the chance to lose 2 games and still win the tournament. There is a group stage first, all players of each rank will be spread evenly throughout the groups. The final breakdown of a 6 person group might be: 1 Pro Master 2 Pro 1 Semi Pro 2 Rookie After everyone has played all the other people in the group the 3 players that have the most wins move on to the finals bracket, and the remaining 3 players move into another bracket from which you can't win the tournament(but can still place in the money). If there are 10 groups of 6, there would be 30 players that move into the final bracket. The top player from one group would play the 3rd place from another group, and the 2nd place players play eachother. This will likely break down so that players that had 2 losses already would be playing players that had not lost in the first round, and players that have 1 loss would be playing players that also had one loss - or something close to that. At this tournament there is ONLY Open Doubles and Open Singles, there is not a semipro event, or a rookie event, or a pro event. This doesn't take anything away from players of those ranks, they still get a minimum of 6 games in the tournament, and thats assuming you lose all of your games. If you win some then you move farther in either bracket. The rookie, semi-pro, and pro payouts are all really strong also. As a rookie if you lose all of your games in the round robin, but win a few in the bracket(there will not be many pro's in this bracket) then the rookie can finish as the "highest ranking rookie" and still win $250. Not bad for a 30 dollar entry fee. SemiPro and pro also have "highest placing semipro" and "highest placing pro". The payouts for all 3 ranks are 1st 2nd and 3rd highest placing, so there is a good chance to make money. Also - If a player ranked Pro, SemiPro, or Rookie places in the money in the open event, they can not be elligible for 2 prizes. We are assuming that if you are good enough to finish 12th or better at this event that you are not a true rookie, and are therfore under ranked. The player keeps whichever payout is better and then the other payout is pushed down to another player from his rank. That rule applies for all 3 ranks. |
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For those of you that haven't checked out the flier... Look at these payouts: Open Singles: 1st $1500 2nd $900 3rd $600 4th $300 5/6th $250 7/8th $200 9-12th $100 1st Pro: $400 2nd Pro: $200 3rd Pro: $100 1st Semi: $400 2nd Semi: $200 3rd Semi: $100 1st Rookie: $250 2nd Rookie: $125 3rd Rookie: $50 That means 21 players are goingto get paid out from open singles - because no player can win two prizes. As previously stated a player that wins two prizes forfiets the lesser prize to another player of his rank. Open Doubles: 1st $2500 2nd $1500 3rd $800 4th $500 5th/6th $250 1st Pro: $700 2nd Pro: $350 3rd Pro: $150 1st Semi: $700 2nd Semi: $350 3rd Semi: $150 1st Rookie: $500 2nd Pro: $250 3rd Pro: $100 That means that 30 players get paid out in open doubles. |
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That was obviously off topic but I think people still aren't reading the flier. On topic again: I can see that it still creates some unfortunate problems in the single elimination format. The problem arises when two top promasters are in seperate groups, and both win all there games as is probable. They then play against 3rd seeded players, and win, then against the winners of the 2nd seed players, and win. If the 1st rank player won all of the groups and there are 10 groups, it leaves you with promasters playing promasters in the round of 8. If the best player plays the 2nd best player in that round, the best one of them can finish is 5th place. If it is double elimination they can both meet in the final even though one lost at that stage. |
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Unless there is an issue with the number of tables, it should be double elimination, a pro master could easily lose a 2/3 qualifier, it just creates a big mess. As far as it being more interesting, a race to 7 is more interesting than a 3/5 match, since people will use a bunch of weird stuff, but the best player doesnt usually win with that format. So do you want the best player to win make it double. A side note i wouldnt care if i lived in edmonton or calgary but if im going to fly or drive for 12 hours, I dont want to end up having a couple bad games and then dribing another 12 hours home. Also how many players are you expecting, is it seeded, is there a cap on the number of players in the final group? |
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Craig - I was thinking of travelling players when I decided on the format. Even if you lose all your games, if you play open doubles and open singles, you would play 12 best of 3 games. If you went to another tournament and lost all your games you would probably play a similar amount, maybe a few more, but don't you think if you lose 12 strait games you deserve to be out of a tournament? That said - I do see the advantages to double elimination, the reason that I didn't make it double elimination was because of tables in the first place. Right now between Chad and myself we have 12 T-3000 tables, with the option to order 8 more after worlds. I'm not too sure what the attendance will be, 60-100 I would guess. We based the payouts off having 80 people in attendance. The cap on the amount of people in the final group would have to be lower if it is double elim. Probably 32 max for double, 64 for single. The tournament is partially seeded. All the pro masters names in one hat, draw them randomly, 1st name is group 1, 2nd name is group 2, etc.. Same process with pro, semipro, and rookie. |
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What's with the group thimg??? Just have a regular tournament like everywhere else. Who ever wants to enter open, then enter. Lose twice then your out. Keep it simple. There was only six tables in cal town and it ran on time, so don't think would be a problem with twelve. Just have a rookie and semi division. Extra pro division money should be added to open. |
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There are several reasons that having a group stage will be beneficial. I am trying working to promote foosball, not just to current players but also to new players. Improving the tournament structure is very important and will be better for all of the players in attendance. In Calgary there was a $4,000 tournament with not much planning or promotion, it was a great event and ran really well and I totally support that but this is a different level of tournament. This event has similar payouts to the Hall of Fame Classic or the US Open, compare to those to see what works and what doesn’t. 1. If you your first two games you are not out of the tournament. In a double elimination bracket 25% of the players go two and out. Another 25% are out after their 3rd game. That means 50% of the players get 3 or less games. Maybe you don’t agree but I do feel that more people would be happy if they get to play more games. In a group stage you get a minimum of 6 games, assuming we have 6 person groups(this will be determined by the amount of entrants). 2. It eliminates sandbagging. No one can enter as a rookie and win that, as well as semipro, and place high in open. I think if I was playing in my first tournament and lost to a guy in “rookie” that also won the “semi-pro” I would feel like I was not treated fairly. I am definitely trying to cater to new players as much as pro players. In this format a player can only win cash in one event, and the group stage sorts out who plays in which bracket. The top players in the tournament will not be in the lower bracket, whoever wins that one is the best of the players that should in reality be called rookies. 3. No conflicts. Having players play in 3 or 4 events is what causes tournaments to be put on hold. In this format there is scheduled times for your games. When you show up to register you will be given a schedule and know what time your games are at. This is what happens in tournaments in every other sport; I don’t see why foosball has to be less organized just to keep the status quo. 4. This is the format that they use in countries where foosball in growing and is much bigger than in Canada. 5. It is better for spectators. We have newspapers printing articles about the event and news channels broadcasting also, they will announce the time for the finals in them, as does the flier. We can actually run a tournament on schedule under this format and I think that is huge. No random person that drops by to watch foosball is going to stay until 3 AM to watch a final. Also I think it is not fair to ask the players playing in the final to play it in the middle of the night. Honestly I’m not sure what advantages there are, if any, to not having a group stage. The only one I can see is that foosball players are used to playing in that, but without change there cannot be improvement. If this tournament doesn’t run well and players are unhappy(after the event) then I’ll use double elimination next year. I need your support as well as other pro's players to help grow foosball. I am looking out for foosball players best interests in everything that I am doing. Hope to see you at the event Tuan! |
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I think the way Will has it set up will make for a great Tournament with lots of foosball and very little down time. The only thing left to be decided is single or double elimination once you are out of your group. I would prefer to see double elimination as it would add more excitement to the tournament, extra games, more pressure, more fun! We have all seen some double dips in the past and anything can happen in this game. |
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