Calgary & Edmonton & Saskatoon & TSAC
| Topic: Chicken or the Egg? |
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Question; Which came first? Question; Does it make sense to focus the majority of your time, energy, practice on being a net minder, or should you first hone your skills as a forward and be able to carry a team, then work on your net minding skills? The scenario; DYP, you play primarily as a goalie, you draw another goalie or newer player and are forced to the front, and all you practice is goal. Now you and your team are at a significant disadvantage, no? Thoughts? |
Posted: Feb 22 2011 8:42AM
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Well I would hope that you'd practice both but, to me, forward practice is more effective, as you can't really translate defensive skill into offensive skill like you can with the reverse. It's easier to stop a shot if you know how to shoot it and in practice you can't really practice your blocking anyway. |
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I can see why you are asking the question, and it is a valid one. My personal experiences are not maybe applicable because I was playing front by the time we had DYP's here in Edmonton. If I was in that situation and I had some time to practice, I would suggest: Practice BALL CONTROL. Every time you get on a table by yourself, spend as much time as you can moving the ball around on a rod. Although each rod is different, the skill transfers from front to back or vice versa. Move the ball around on each rod in a back pin position, front pin position, tic-tacking, etc. Especially focus on moving the ball from a front pin on one man to a back pin on the next man over, then to a front pin on the next man after that. It will teach you to catch the ball well and then you will get the ball more in games. |
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Chicken or the egg?This sounds like a question for Hardboiled,a.k.a. The Flying Dutchman. |
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play singles. a lot of singles. |
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good advice there Tony. My answer would be to practice what you want to be. You want to be a power forward, practice to be one. You want to be a top flight defence, do so. Practicing to something specific (ie: having a 'goal') is the only way to achieve the specific. If you want to be a well rounded player, follow Tony's advice. It'll make you a far better partner as well. |
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My answer to the question you are really asking,which is how do you get better is as follows: 1.Table Time: Play as much as possible. 2.Always try to play players who are better than you.You will never improve otherwise. 3.Never practice one position more than the other.A good player will be able to quickly discern and then exploit whatever your weaknesses as a player may be.Good Luck. |
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"2.Always try to play players who are better than you.You will never improve otherwise." That is the same as saying practice doesn't make you better. It makes no sense. When the rods aren't moving at all on the other side (like when you are practicing), that is the equivalent of the worst player conceivable, yet does one not improve when playing this theoretical much worse player? |
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"2.Always try to play players who are better than you.You will never improve otherwise." I also must respectfully disagree to this statement. Although I do agree that it is important to play players that are better than you as much as possible, it is also beneficial to play against players that are worse than you sometimes. Specifically, lets say a player wants to learn to shoot a rollover or pull shot, and can play against someone that is not very good. I think this is an ideal circumstance. By playing vs a weaker player or very weak player you gain: a. You will live with the ball, therefore giving you more practice time than vs a great player. If a newbie plays someone way too good, they will not get the ball at all, thus not improving some specific skills. b. moving defense - if you can learn to destroy a weak defense by out thinking them it will help your confidence once shooting on a better player. Having a weak player is much better than anything else for LEARNING a shot, once you can consistently execute and score sometimes against a pro or decent player, then it is not of much advantage to shoot vs a weak defense. |
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Great thread idea by the way, thanks for starting an interesting discussion. |
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>>You want to be a top flight defence, do so. you should at least learn how to shoot the spin shot on your three bar.  |
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The above comments were right,I was wrong. |
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no, you weren't wrong Joe. imho: Practicing or learning a new shot against someone who hasn't a fully developed set of skills will teach you how to shoot the shot good enough to compete against someone who hasn't a fully developed set of skills. I believe the game to be one of adaptation and response. This dynamic is presented to the player in the physical and mental aspects of action & tactics. Action - or physical execution - can be practiced anywhere/anytime/anybody. Tactics - the choice in approach and prosecution in shotmaking/passing (and subsequent adaptation/response) cannot be practiced in the absence of another player. I believe that as a player progresses - one's focus migrates from action to tactics, as physical repetition and execution of the player becomes sufficent. At any rate, I can tell you that without playing better players, you'll never get any better than the guys you play with. And, I've seen some guys with crazy mad skills - buut people who have low game maturity and tactical ability - that are pretty easy to handle. I also can name players with lesser physical capabilitites who are a handful. Bottom line: You'll only be as good as those you play against. A good number of the PMs & P's around here will look straight into your though processes and know them before you do. as Will said, this is a good topic, and many opinions might be around. these are mine  |
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If I was just starting out I would probably focus more energy at the forward position. Maybe something like 75% forward 25% goalie. My reasoning for this is that IMO there are more forward skills (shooting, ball grabs, zone defense) that translate to the goalie position than vice versa. Also becoming a competent forward is IMO more difficult than becoming a competent goalie. Now before that statement causes mass hysteria let me clarify. I think it is much harder to become a decent forward than a decent goalie but it switches when you want to be great. To be a great goalie it is extremely difficult. Learning tendencies, making quick adjustments, understanding what the opponent is looking for and baiting accordingly. Those are all things that come with experience. At the lower levels you can often win based on physical ability alone but if thats the case it's your forward game that will need to be competent. Then again I'm biased  Thoughts from a great goalie? |
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I think you need both, but if you are already a competent net-minder, it would serve you better to invest more time and energy into strengthening your forward game. The reason I say that is this, it is harder to carry a team to victory from the defensive position because the probability of scoring from the back is lower then from the forward position. There are fewer layers of defense to get the ball past in the forward position so it becomes a percentage game. Sure you may be able to win a match or two like this, but over time, a good team will be able to shut down a goalie's shots with effective zone D's or what have you. Sure a great goalie can do a lot for keeping the opposing team from scoring, but if the other team keeps getting opportunity after opportunity to put shots on goal, it's only a matter of time before they take the game from you. Tony's advice is good, play lots of singles and it will round out your game. Playing people that are better than you will improve your game, only if you learn how to adapt to that particular player and figure out how to exploit their weaknesses, but a newer player playing against a pro-master will not improve the newer player's game significantly unless the pro-master shares insights and teaches the new player how to think quickly and respond. It is the equivalent to putting a newbie boxer in the ring with Mike Tyson and letting the slaughterfest begin... Practicing against no opponent will improve the skill, but not the thought process behind the decision making at the table, you need both though. One needs to be able to execute the shot or pass on demand, and that doesn't come by playing a better player, it comes by drilling it over and over until it becomes an automatic response. Whatever, just my thoughts, take em or leave em...  |
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Freddy, I like that. Way to take all the advice and sum it up in one. Really good points by all. |
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I like chicken ... eggs give me gas  . |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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You can't practice defence on the home table. Smart work is fine, but you don't get smart overnight, work hard, perservere, pay your dues and tuition, take your beatdowns and develop RESILIENCE. It's one of the most important traits most players will never get. i dont care if it's foosball, poker, tennis or golf. dealing with ADVERSITY is a skill you can't practice solo. Buy a table. Borrow or buy some video. Become a true student if you love it. No bad habits like some of us older farts. I wish I had mentoring when I started playing. Back then it was loser pays. Imagine giving away your entire allowance every week to THAT for tuition. |
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Ya ya ya we get it!  |
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Play forward! Because Playing Goal doesn't get u any praise! Trust me, i've carried many forwards through tourneys and only got praise from my forward, not any opponents! maybe twice its happend. it's usually OH! i wasn't shooting very good today, ask any Pro thats played beside me. they'l tell you. Scoring 30% of the goals from back and blocking 70% takes alot of Skill to develope. Especially if you use a Race defence like me.it takes me a week to recover after a week-end of race defence. Thats why im only playing forward or singles from now on. Theres no Respect for a good goalie!if anyone should know Garry B and I should know! And like Tony said PLAY SINGLES! |
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Fear the Bush Doctor and heed his advice.You want praise Bush Doctor?Buy a puppy!! |
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>>You can't practice defence on the home table. Actually you can. >> Back then it was loser pays. This was and still is a good idea. |
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"Ya ya ya we get it!" - hahaha |
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I don`t think you work on being a goalie or a forward you work on skills in these categories and usually this order: 1) Goalie defensive 2) Zone defenses 3) Goalie offensive 4) 5row offensive 5) 3row offensive 6) 5row defensive 7) Loose ball pickups 8) Tempo control 9) Mind games |
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10) Mind control Btw the title of this thread is misleading. |
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