Calgary & Edmonton & Saskatoon & TSAC
| Topic: WEM Fireball Tournament Ball - Tornado |
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We have been using the Fireball ball for the past few days here, and some new circumstances are forcing us to switch to the Tornado ball. We were shipped 63 Fireball balls, and have used half of the balls already. After a very short time they become quite unusable. They do not remain round, and they are very very bouncy. We have had pretty much unanimous complaints about the balls. The ball plays nice when new, but in about half an hour of table time it is quite bad, not precise or crisp. I apologize to anyone who is not happy with this decision, including Dennis, but it is necessary. When you arrive at the tournament I will let you use the Fireball ball, and see for yourself. I don't think many people would complain after using it and seeing what it turns into quickly. I'm sure that everyone will enjoy this tournament much more using the Tornado ball. The tables are playing incredibly. I can't wait for you to try them out. See you soon. |
Posted: Apr 15 2011 3:51AM
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Will, I trust that your decision is a good one to switch. These balls were the first batch of their kind to be used on the tables or at the tournament. I need you to keep these balls and send them to us later for us to study and see what is wrong. I suspect that in the process of achieving hardness desired we may have sacrificed the density needed for longevity. Or the Compact Board back wall is too hard for the balls? I am sure you guys play a lot harder with snake shots than we have played in the factory. |
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Thanks Dennis. I'll keep the balls and make sure you see them soon. |
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I agree that this is the right decision Will. I think that all participants will enjoy this tournament much more using the ball that they are familiar with. The tables are playing very nice with the Tornado ball and it is not difficult to adjust to. On the other hand, when using the Fireball ball, EVERYTHING feels foreign. Besides the roundness issue that many have experienced, the bounciness of the ball makes the ball move much quicker between the men when tic-tacking and requires a large timing adjustment on tic-tack shots and passes. Thanks for making this decision Will.... I know that I personally will enjoy this tournament much more and I think most other participant's that have not had much table time on Fireball will too!  |
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I'm really happy I made this decision. One thing that we didn't get complaints about was the ball. |
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It wasn't the ball.At least not by it self.Please accept the following as constructive criticism,not someone that is complaining(that he didn't win open doubles too!). 1.When the ball was being pinned the men felt soft. 2.The surface of the table seemed to impede smooth,consistent set shots,especially the pull. 3.The bounces on the table,whether the ball was hitting a man or a wall,seemed unpredictable and unnatural.This quite often resulted in a great deal of slop. 4.The blue and white line that bordered the front of the net was hard to look at and was therefore not useful but in fact detrimental to a goalie who uses this to determine how far he should be shaking his men while defending.This line should be one solid blue or white. 5.The table plays too slow. In sum,there needs to be some fundamental changes to the table if it doesn't want to go the way of the warrior table. |
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The Tornado ball wasn't bad overall. Something that I did notice was that the Tornado ball would get chewed up after a while, worse than when played on Tornado table. This can probably be attributed to the more aggressive texture of the Fireball play figure. Admittedly I didn't spend much time playing with the Fireball ball but based on my limited experience I bet that the aggressive texture on the play figure would have an even greater impact on the Fireball ball causing the issues that people were reporting. If fireball is still making adjustments they may want to consider either adjusting the ball or the play figure in order to increase the life of the ball. That said, I was quite pleased with the table as a whole. I think they put together a good product. |
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Joe, I disagree with you on points 2, 3 and 5. I didn't really get impacted by points 1 and 4 because of my style of play. Something to keep in mind is that Fireball needs to make their own identity as a table. If they simply make a Tornado clone, they run the risk of being viewed as a 'knock off'. |
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When i played singles against you Joey, i was in the pits using the same side but the table didnt seem high then. In the double finals it seem awardly high to a point where the bars felt like chest level for me. Was it raise before double finals? I was also in the pits before your singles final playing Eric using the opposite side and the table seem manageable. Or was one side a lot higher then other side? |
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I'd have to disagree with you on 2, 3 and 5 as well Joey. On point 2, you know I don't shoot a pull...but on the Fireball i didn't have much trouble setting up the ball for a pull (on the 2 bar and the 3 bar). On point 3 and 5...I personally found that the table played fairly fast. At the same time, even with the table playing quickly, to me it wasn't unpredictable at all. There's always going to be slop, but for me all weekend long playing goalie I found it fairly easy to reign in loose balls flying everywhere. The only slops I found unnatural were where the ball starting lifting and bouncing. I had my fair share of balls hop in the goal OVER my goal rod. All in all, I didn't mind the Fireball. I would need a bit more regular playing time to fully love it though. There are parts of my game that I love on Fireball and others which are better on Tornado...but that's got to be expected when you try to transition in such a short period of time. |
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I dont think the problem was in the ball but in the table itself. Yes i agree with Eric that Fireball needs to make and identity for itself but the problem was not in the identity but in poor playability. The surface was still not even and and the feeling of the table was different (maybe five bar was lighter then rest so made passing feel weird) dont know but was definitely hard for my tic tac series. I always got the impression that Fireball was suppose to be easier to tic tac then Tornado but i dont know what happen with this batch. Maybe they forgot to sand the men? At the end of the day its about making the best table that people would wanna play on. If Fireball wants too do well in American market they have to make it better then Tornado. I dont see Tornado going anywhere soon. |
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Regarding the ball, I still need to see the balls you guys played for testing and analysis. When they were sent from the factory they were very round just off the grinder and tumbller. The ball does bounce quite a bit if hit by the figure with the ball set in the back. It weighs 26.7 gms, the same as T balls. It is hard to imagine that the texture on the figures chewed up the surface of the ball since Polyurathane is a tougher material than the ABS used to make the figures. A harder material for the ball may be called for. I will make some new balls with a harder compound for the WSO so there will be less contrast to the T balls. In my view, we will neever make a ball as hard as Tornado since Fireball is a table intended to be played by players aross continents. It may be necessary to pack 2 kinds of balls in the future with each table, one softer one harder, to carter to drastically-varying palying styles. As to the goal lines, I used the European method of printing the lines outside goal as compared to being inside the gaol on Tornado. Sorry guys. Yes you have to adjust how far you position the goalie to block the shots. As to the Fireball identity, since I personally play with a mix of styles and I have had many players influnce me on the design, the table is a hybrid of many tables and features. The body/cabinet is very European. The figure is V-foot, my personal preference in this case, therefore viewed as close to Tornado. We also have a U-foot figure for European players that we pack in the tables sent to European customers. By the same reason, the ball should be a little softer and grippier than T ball so that people from all styles will find it easy to play (unless you think it's impossible). Thanks for your input and congrats to all the winners. Dennis |
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I think your mistake is trying to make a table that is suitable for everyone,which just isn't possible.If players are forced to compensate or change their style of play,then this will inevitably take away from their game.I am sure this was true of many of the players in Edmonton this past weekend. This table plays too slow and is therefore geared toward a less experienced or beginning player,one who does not have a good transition game.But for a competition table,tornado is far and away a superior product. |
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Joey, It is a trade-off to any player to play on a table different from the one you are used to and trained on. It would a bigger mistake to try to cater to only one style and try to copy the feel and features of any existing table and become a knock-off of that table. Tornado and Dynamo are great tables. Fireball may already be the closest table to Tornado among all existing table types with the least adjusting required. This table you all jsut played on is the same table we had at last year's BartO but with thick 1" playfield and Compact Baord back wall. As to the ball and table being slow, since the tournament was run with the Tornado ball, and the surface is quite slick, I want know why some of you think the play is still too slow and how to make it play fast even with a T ball. Thanks in advance. |
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Joe, 1.The men did feel a little soft, but it wasn't worse or better than Tornado. just different 2.I totally disagree with this comment. The play field seemed to play just fine to me. 3.The bounces hitting the men did seem unpredictable but not unnatural. The angles on the foot of the man might have something to do with this. I suspect if you played on the table as long as you played on Tornado the bounces would become predictable. There were some bounces around the back wall that ended up as a slop goal, but Tornado gets these as well. 4.The blue and white line that bordered the front of the net were not detrimental to me. I don't look at lines on the table when I block. I look at my men and the net. 5.I thought it played fast You said If players are forced to compensate or change their style of play,then this will inevitably take away from their game.I am sure this was true of many of the players in Edmonton this past weekend. I can't believe you would say this after winning an event. Unless you thought you shouldn't have won because everyone else wasn't playing as good as they should. You are comparing a table that you played a few hours on to a table that you have played on for over 10 years The table isn't a Tornado or is it trying to be a Tornado. There already is a Tornado Table. Why would you want another table that plays exactly like a Tornado. I think the fire ball table played just like it should have - like a Foosball table. I think fireball is on the right track and is developing a table that will help grow foosball. Good work Dennis! |
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I am saying it after I won an event because I play at a much higher level on a Tornado.I mean this table is superior to warrior,but that's all.Again, take my criticism as something meant to be constructive,not pettiness. |
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Thanks Joey and Simon and Tuan for your kind and honest input. Very appreciated. As a table manufacturer I need to hear all sides from all different angles. I admit I am an idealist trying to come up with a table that everyone will like but knowing it is not possible. Most of the improvements came from suggestions like yours. |
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I really enjoyed this table even as an amateur. I've been playing around 2 years on and off. I am not a brush passer (nor do I have a 5 bar really at all) and found it tough to stick pass simply because I couldn't adjust fast enough. This is purely my own fault though as I saw many of the other players adjust and were able to catch the passes just fine. This meant that it was ME that had to adjust. I have taken this opportunity to try to learn a brush pass for future instances like this so that I can more easily adjust in the future. I think a good foosball player is one that can play well no matter what table it's on. Take a look at Rico, he is versatile on all tables. I found this to be a great table even though I really wanted the tournament to be on a fireball ball so that I could get the true feel of the fireball table. I am glad I went to this tournament and it will in the long run make me a better player. |
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I liked the table, especially with the Tornado ball. As a stick passer, the one frustration that I experienced all weekend was catching a hard lane or wall pass. That said, I watched Eric Dunn SLAM hard stick lane passes to his 3-row and catch them perfectly every time..... so I know this is my problem, not the table's. I know that given enough table time I would make this adjustment. Other than that, problems I was having on Day 1, slowly worked themselves out as I played more. The only modification that I would hope could be addressed, is changing ball returns to have one centered one on each side. It seemed we were all constantly searching for the ball after a goal was scored. I do like the switch that allows you to determine which side the ball goes to that allows you to practice on both sides of the table. I would definitely play in another Fireball tournament. |
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Good point about the ball return. I got jabbed in the arm a couple times getting the ball from the return located under the opponents two bar. |
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Since this is the only post I see FireballGuy responding on ill post here. I first of all would like to know the reason behind all the rods being loose in the bearings, you could grab a rod and shake in inside the bearing and it would move roughly 1/16" up or down, as far as i can tell all this does is make a back pin possible, yet however a 16th of an inch movement on a pullshot means you miss the ball. there was an older model there where the rods were smoothly sliding with no gap. I know Simon, and I believe Tim W were hitting their pull shot relatively well, but as Gerry said, He, Joey, myself, Brian, Andy, Justin, and Eric G were not, all of these players by my recollection would have one or two good shots and then 3 or 4 bad shots, that is an issue when 75% of pro level players are struggling with their shots by the 3rd day of the tournament. Also, I saw some of the fireball balls, most looked ugly but still rolled true, however of the small sample size of used balls that I saw I would say roughly 25% had chips in them, that is a major issue, if thats over the matter of one week. The loose rod is something very upsetting to me, the only reason I can think of for it is it makes back pins much easier, when is the last time a backpin shooter won any level of event on tour from rookie to open. So if thats the reason, to sacrifice pulls shots for backpins, your losing a large percentage of players. The only other reason I could think of was the one that was smooth was the silver rods, much heavier but definitely no wiggle, so Is the reason that the diameter of the rods were made incorrectly? I will be playing in one more fireball tournament in seattle, but if it continues to play the same way, it will undoubtedly be my last. |
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play foosball.. not Tornado. and i'm a Tornado guy. bring back the backpin. foosball had more players than ever with the backpin. some of the best players ever. watch some video if you can find some. dennis, i played your table at world's 2009. it plays fine and if the current version is better, kudos to your efforts. input from players is good and glad you're listening but just ignore the complainers and whiners. btw.. nice thread Desmond |
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Another example of a player adjusting is Joey. He's mainly a pull shooter but he won by using the European front pin as the tournament went on. Joey was slamming nice stick passes well throughout. I realized that my stick passes weren't working well because I wasn't receiving the pass correctly with my 3 bar. Tornado is more forgiving in this area. This means that it takes a much higher calibre of player to adjust. I like hitting the stick passes hard which makes receiving the pass more difficult and requiring more skill in which at the time of the tournament I didn't have. So this means that when I go back to Tornado, I will learn how to receive the pass correctly. This way I will be able to adjust a lot easier next time I go to a Fireball tournament. You live and learn right? And if you don't learn, then you'll be stuck at the same level while everybody else who learns and adjusts will just surpass you. Darcy is a good example of this - He is constantly learning and adjusting and in a short period of time has taken his game to a completely higher level and beating pro masters. I watched him take Joey out in the qualifiers. Even with Joey playing head games, Darcy kept it together to beat him. Cheers. Thanks again Will and gang for putting this on. |
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Another example of a player adjusting is Joey. He's mainly a pull shooter but he won by using the European front pin as the tournament went on. Joey was slamming nice stick passes well throughout. I realized that my stick passes weren't working well because I wasn't receiving the pass correctly with my 3 bar. Tornado is more forgiving in this area. This means that it takes a much higher calibre of player to adjust. I like hitting the stick passes hard which makes receiving the pass more difficult and requiring more skill in which at the time of the tournament I didn't have. So this means that when I go back to Tornado, I will learn how to receive the pass correctly. This way I will be able to adjust a lot easier next time I go to a Fireball tournament. You live and learn right? And if you don't learn, then you'll be stuck at the same level while everybody else who learns and adjusts will just surpass you. Darcy is a good example of this - He is constantly learning and adjusting and in a short period of time has taken his game to a completely higher level and beating pro masters. I watched him take Joey out in the qualifiers. Even with Joey playing head games, Darcy kept it together to beat him. Cheers. Thanks again Will and gang for putting this on. |
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Viper, You have a couple of very valid points here. First, the wiggle room in the bushing is not intended but is caused by the shrinking or bending of the plastic material off injection in the cooling process due to its thick walls. As a result, the hole in the bushing is not round enough. The verdical diameter is more than the horizontal, 16.75mm, and the rod diameter is 16mm. There a play of 0.75mm or 1/32". It does affect the pull shot execution. We need to bring it down to a 0.4mm for a better feel. It involves modifying the mould, which I am working on right now. For WSO in Seattle, the 8 Coin-op table will have the new bushings with the right hole diameter and less wiggle. I did not know the the back-pin shots are easier with too much play in bushing. Good observation. I think back-pin is easier because of the foot design. As I said, there will be Fireball Coin-op tables at WSO this year. The top is identical to the USA Pro model you just played. The ball return is different of course. Fireball ball will be used. The chips on the balls probably came from the fastners inside the ball return, which I have told my people to inspect and correct now. Coin-op tables will have a whole different ball return mechnism. The balls you guys played were the very first batch of balls that we made usung our grinding machine. The coolant was staining the surface of the balls at the time. The new batches of balls are cleaner and brighter. You will see them in Seattle. Brad Laurine will be there in Seattle to help out with questions and table/ball problems if they arise. The ball is a little softer and bouncier than T ball. That makes it a little harder to catch a stick pass. If you swing the 3-rod a little when catching it like Tony S does to cushion the impact, the catch will be a lot easier I think. I believe you go to the tournament because you love the game and you want to help improve the game including making such good suggestions and observations. Don't stop going because the tables are defferent or not perfect. We hope to see you in Seattle and at future events. Dennis |
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Great Event! I watched a few matches over the weekend. Thanks to Jim Stevens and Will for putting this event on. I also will thank Dennis Jiang, owner of Fireball manufacturing of China, for his hand in this event. As I watched the play on the tables, the T ball was extremely fast. Being a Pro and active player for both Fireball and Tornado, the table looks fine. I have 10 of the first run balls here in Southern Oregon and we played the hell out of 4 of the BRAND new balls. 2 per table and 6 hours until the finals. I replaced the Fireball ball with T balls and after the finals were over. Guess what... The Fireball Table Soccer ball was the ball they could catch as it flew around the table. Yes, the timing was different. Yes, the pull was slower, because of drag and ball position. I will say once you figured out the position, that ball will FIRE out of the pocket, as Todd would call it. They stopped with the comments, as soon as I put the T balls back in play. They went from, I can't catch it(Fireball) to...oh, I can't catch it(T ball) to, oh, I can catch it(Fireball)... The real problem is emotion. Hell, I have played with the T ball for years. The F Ball is tackier and evens out the play between all players more. Period. I have an advantage with the T ball. Slight, but it is still there. So!!!! A little pinch of this and a little of that, I think the ball will be just fine. Really... What would it matter to use Tornado balls, Garlando, Bonzini or whatever flavor of ITSF balls you desire. The Fireball ball is just an option. It is the table that will make the difference. We all have our preference. We ALL are picky about our balls... yuk yuk, Fireball will work to make the players happy. As Tom Shane would say, "I guarantee it". Brad Laurine www.firetablesoccer.com www.rod-lock.com |
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Brad, One of the problems I noticed with the F ball was on some there was a flat spot on the ball. Not at first but later on after a few hours of play. When you went to set up a set shot the ball would wobble around and finally settle it the flat spot. Sort of like spinning a quarter and watching it wobble until it finally lays flat. Not to this extreme but I think you get the picture. This didn't happen with all the balls. Just a few of them. I used the F ball at my house for a few days before the tournament on a F table and played a bunch of matches against Christian and Garry. The ball played fine. Dennis had said that it might be the hardware in the ball return damaging the balls. This could be as I noticed some of the ball returns had a lot more screws in them than others. |
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I have to agree with Simon here. Brad, I don't feel as the Fireball balls we had here at WEM were more or less tacky than the T balls, I did feel that they were stickier for the first play through, however. I know that doesn't make sense, but I get the feeling that the F balls were possibly rubbing off or chipping earlier than the T balls due to this. The first few hours with the F balls were great, but not only did they lose their tack significantly faster than the T balls, the design allowed for structural problems to occur under duress. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinions as is and I'm really excited about the position and direction of fireball, but as it sits right now the ball is a weak spot. I'm sure we could provide more testing and feedback on the next batch if you'd like! Thanks for your support fireball team, we really enjoyed the tables! |
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Great thread. My thoughts (not as a TD but as a player). The F-Ball plays well, compared to most foosballs in the world. I still feel it is in the top 5-10 balls I have ever used, a list which includes: Tornado Pink Tornado New Red Warrior 1 (better, heavier) Warrior 2 (lighter) Roberto Sport Garlando ITSF speedplay Bonzini ITSF Ball Bonzini Cork ball, both weights, heavy and light TecBall Fireball (a few versions of F-Ball) And hundreds of different balls that are made of hard white plastic, I wouldn't really call those foosballs though. In all the time I have played foosball, nothing compares to the best Warrior ball, the one that was used for most of the tour. They modified the table and ball later on and both got worse. The Warrior ball was fast enough (especially when using it on a Fireball table), VERY grippy and catchable, did not dent (less than a tornado ball even), remained a really good foosball for literally hundreds of hours of play. The next best ball would have to be Tornado - all the versions of Tornado balls have been acceptable, and even a bad Tornado ball is better than most other foosballs. The F-Ball is probably in the top 5 balls ever made in my opinion, but it just isn't durable. It is also a little too bouncy. You can't feel the ball as well, and certainly the tic-tac is much worse with the f-ball. You can't get the same snap on the ball as you can with Tornado ball. If I could recommend a change, it would be to make the ball more durable. It is important to keep it still very grippy, like the Warrior ball, but hopefully fast like the Tornado ball. I think the idea of having the "fuzz" around the ball is not good. The Warrior ball wasn't fuzzy but was still grippy. Balls that need fuzz are great for a little while, but then the fuzz wears off and the ball is not good anymore. I'm not sure how the Warrior ball got so good, and didn't get damaged by men/nets/ball returns. It is grippy but durable. If it was my choice I would use that ball on all tables, even the Tornado table. |
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I hear the Shelti Table and balls are very good. http://www.shelti.com/pdf/Coin-Operated/Foosball/Pro%20Foos%20III%20coin%20brochure.pdf |
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Will, I will email you a simple solution to fix the problem of the balls getting chipped by the screwws inside the ball return. I will also send you some more balls from the latest production. For WSO, the coin op tables will have a very different ball return. Chipping on the balls will be a non issue. As to the yellow Shelti ball, I do not think you guys will like it since it is very soft and slow and not very round and overly scuffed. We tried it last year the first day of the FL tournament on Fireball, players wanted to change to the T ball the second day. |
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Okay, back to the F-Ball. Just for the hell of it, Simon and I had a couple of in depth conversations about the F-Ball. I might even say, longer conversations then most people played on the F-Ball. What I have found At the factory, one of my tests was to do a drop test. Dennis, I think is being polite to you fine foosers. When I ran the test in front of him to show exactly what are the differences it clearly shows the T-Ball comes off the wall, the man, off the floor or off your dome at a faster pace. To redouble my efforts, back in the states, I set up a yard stick and dropped the balls and measured the bounce of each ball. Here are the results The F-ball is NOT as bouncy. The New T-Ball bounces 15% higher off the drop test. The Warrior balls bounce at or near the same as the New T-Ball, however the older Pink T-Ball bounces the most. ALL balls tested are Brand new. I have a stick series and most certainly understand what it takes to toss, dribble, push or slap forward and catch all of the above balls. All on a Tornado and on a Fireball table. The Fireball Guy, Dennis is correct in catching all balls, this motion helps greatly. Dennis stated that we tried the Shelti ball he meant the Warrior ball. I was the one who purchased and ship the ball and they were the warrior ball. In the UK, they are using the Warrior ball on Fireball tables. They prefer a slow, slow ball. The Warrior is not a preferred choice. In Texas they want a ball super hard and tough to catch. In Seattle, mixed bag. On the East coast of the States, they didn't mind the Warrior ball but played with the new T-ball. In Milwaukee and Atlanta, they played on the older pink ball. I have gone all around the country seeing what players prefer. It is a mixed bag according to region. Roll test All balls wobble at super slow speed. The fuzz is never even. Now, here is the issue. Does it wobble because of play surface and the ball? Does it wobble because it is dented after play? Being meticulous in procedure, I tested all balls after many hours of play. Guess what race fans, all balls tested the same. Sorry, but I set up two parallel rods on the surface and sent them down. Testing to see if the shape and/or denting remain in ridged form. On the Warrior ball, I allowed some slop due to the amount of texture flatten over the surface. The F-Ball fared EXTREMELY well. The PROTOTYPE ball that was sent to Edmonton has two problems. One, the injection point is big and harder on the ball causing misdirection (wobble) when it goes over that spot. Two, it is slightly smaller than it should be, 1.365 versus 1.360. the older Pink T-Ball is 1.355 just for the hell of it info. What I did find was a small obstruction affected the F-Ball far more than any other of the balls tested. A small artifact will make the ball wavier. Texture supplies, in a sense a cushion to absorb small things. Another thing that I found is that it is extremely hard to see that the ball is spinning. The texture added an element that made it somewhat easier to detect spin. Dennis and I will have to work on this last aspect. Dots or lines or for that matter a logo bleached into the surface... That is what I have here at the Stanford Labs in Palo Alto, California. Where science is science and where facts meets fiction. |
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I meant to add, a new mold has corrected the orifice or injection inlet. Also, more fuzz helps increase the stopping ability of the ball for a set up shot like the pull. I will add that I am a pull shooter and the F-Ball requires the ball to be under the bar more than a less gippy ball. When shooting a brand new ball, even a T-Ball requires adjustment for pull shooters. A rack full of balls, often require seeing which ball you pull out for your drop. Tell me if I have a point here or not. The F-ball drags more then slides like the T-ball. But damn if you can't catch that thing flying around the table better! Brad Laurine www.firetablesoccer.com www.rod-lock.com |
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One question, what's a yard stick  |
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