Calgary
| Topic: Edmonton Foos Meeting |
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Thursday Night during/after the Dukes tournament, at Dukes, we will be having a discussion about the future of Foosball in Edmonton. We can start the discussion here. Key topics include: - Point System - Format - Handicapping |
Posted: Jul 13 2011 2:44PM
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Point system - should we keep the point system we have? We now have two tournaments a week to work with also if we want to.. so a lot more options are avaliable. I'm getting the sense that a lot of people don't care about points anymore. Don't get me wrong, people like the prestiege of being in the top 10 or 20 or something like that... but a lot of people have think that it is better to have less points (because you get better partners) than it is to have more points. Here is a thought about what we could to in regards to all the topics: Points Race - every time you win a tournament you get 50 points, 2nd is 30 points, 3rd is 20 points, 4th is 15 points, 5th/6th is 10, 7/8 is 8, everything else is 5. Each month, have a points race and 4 set events for the month.. say BYP, DYP, Pro/Am, and Singles. We still have two tiers, but you can't move up or down in the middle of a month. Essentially if you start off August in Tier 1, you play all of august in Tier 1. At the end of the month the top 2 or 3 players in Tier 2 move up, and a few players from Tier 1 move down. We could do something like having no payouts at all until the end of the month, and just do the payout based on the points. Or do weekly payouts and have a trophy that each month we add on the name of whoever won Tier 1 and Tier 2. We could probably keep the trophy on display at High Run Club. Ok... discussion started. Lets hear what you have in mind, I want comments from: Dan, Ray, Simon, Darcy, Paul, Carey, Garry, Cam, Chris, other Chris, and everyone else that is involved in this league! |
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I think something to be explored is taking a cue from the Edmonton Table Tennis League: They charge a yearly membership to help cover the cost of the league/building rental table maintenance etc. But they don't charge anything for a Friday night. There's a drop-in fee of $5 for the night if you're not a member and you get to play all night. There's a small difference in our sport being that we need to feed loonies to keep our bars happy and to grow the sport. We can continue that, but I propose, with those yearly membership dues, we put on a few minor tournaments a year outside of our league nights. Those tournaments will have modest pay-outs but will have trophies. Points at these events should be more heavily weighted than a league night. Something to consider anyway. Also, I like the way that ELO works. You should be rewarded for beating someone who's ranked above you. |
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I like the current elo system-it generally rewards performance accurately. The only time I question any formats that are run is when we do tiered-then playoffs of the different tiers-the handicaps then are too high- 5 spot to 8 in 1 game etc-especially after a long night in your own tier-just my 2 cents. Changing things up would keep it interesting, but I don't believe there is anyone "trying" to keep their rank low. There is no guarantee of a top 5 player. I think everyone's competitiveness wins out. The monthly thing penalizes you too much if you are not able to play EVERY night. |
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One thing I like is the 4 set events. There are some formats that I don't like to play in and not knowing until the night before kinda sucks. I don't like the membership idea. Part of paying for your game should include a decent table to play on with decent balls ie. table maintenance. Would you pay a fee to a golf course so they would mow the grass? Probably not. I think the points system is working well. I also think it is very important to keep the points going. It's nice to have something you can measure your game against. The only criticism is sometimes it takes a week or two to update the points. I understand you guys have other things going on, so maybe ask for some volunteers to enter the data. I think the write-ups are great. Players like to be acknowledged for there good play. This is something you could also ask for help with. I hate handicapping. I never got a drop or a spot when I started playing. I just took my lumps and kept at it. I don't like the fact the new location is sooooo far away now  but I'm glad that the EFL has found a new home and foosball will continue in Edmonton.On another note, I'm practicing hard for worlds and wouldn't mind a few competitive nights of doubles against Christian and I. |
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I like the new locations-they are both 10 minutes away for me. As I had to do the 40 minutes drive to Gateway, I will enjoy this now. "a few competitive nights of doubles against Christian and I." Give me some notice, and I'm in! |
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I said competitive!  sorry I couldn't resist  . Sounds good I'll let you know |
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Ya I'll help Garry teach you two some lessons :) |
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again, I said competitive!  sounds good to me |
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Will and Garry will be a good test Simon...One thing we haven't practiced enough is getting past those tough "Bye" teams |
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Anyone have a cage???   |
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Kinda sad I'm not gonna be able to make it to Duke's but I'll offer input here. I'm a big fan of the points race idea because I think it will just add a little more incentive each week for those who might have lost a little bit of interest in their current rank or movement of said rank. I'm not a fan of no weekly payouts but I really do like the concept of the monthly trophy...Would definitely add some extra interest at least from my perspective. Formats for the most part are fine and I rarely find the format to be a major detractor but I am a BIG fan of the tiered system for certain events...not all obviously but it's nice to kinda have a smaller tourny within the tourny and really get some intense matches going with evenly matched teams. Fav events include Singles, Team format, Pro/Ams (but NOT highest plays with lowest type...prefer an aspect of randominity lol) and Am's choice (again with random selection of Am's) |
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Great feedback... How bout some input from non-pro's? |
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Simon what's up with your phone? Give me a call if you can talk, 780-340-4222 |
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"randominity " Christian just made up a word...  |
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I shut it off. I'm suppose to be off this week and work keeps calling me. Call me at home 444-3066 |
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Everything happens for a reason, and the new locations sound far better than Gateway, even though for some including me, the Dukes location is on the total opposite end of the city. However now we get to have 2 tournaments per week. Getting into the High Run Centre is also a HUGE break. Sounds like the management of Dukes and High Run are happy to have us and appreciate the extra business we will bring. Thats AWESOME! In regards to the point system, format and handicaps. 1. Point system seems to be working pretty good. I like to be competitive and try to improve my game and skills continuously. The point system seems to be a good measure for this. However I have Jedi powers as well, how else could you explain my point rank..lol Maybe a bi-weekly point update would work though instead of a weekly one. 2. A set format may be a good idea as there are some people who want to compete in some but not other events. This would allow them to plan their time better. I really enjoy all the formats as I believe it all ads experience and skill, and makes us all better players. 3. Handicaps are nice and add a element of excitement to the game on both the pro and ams sides I believe, however there is something to be said for earning your stripes as well. Maybe a lower number would work better, say maximum 3 point lead? Maybe have everyone pitch in $10 for a nice trophy, that we could update every month. Kind of like the Stanley Cup of Foosball. I also enjoy the immediate gratification of cash in hand after a hard fought battle to gain a position in the winner’s circle, so weekly cash payouts are nice. (everyone likes to gamble) Iam very new to the league, but man am I grateful I found it and re-discovered a game I have loved my whole life... (tear) |
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>>Would you pay a fee to a golf course so they would mow the grass? Probably not. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your $100 green fees cover that. Also, yearly memberships don't have to be alot and you could still get prize money every week, you just wouldn't have to pay your $5. And, as Ray touched on, the larger weekend tournaments could have a trophy that gets the open winners name printed on it, but stays with the league... it would add some tradition to the sport in our city. I'm always down for some practice too, Simon, just let me know. |
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I also like the idea of the trophy that stays at High Run and the winners have their name printed on it. As for the points system I like having it, but this is my first league and dont really know how any other systems work so I dont have much imput on it. I personally like it the way it is, even tho i cant seem to stay close to one place for more than a couple weeks. Set formats will be nice too, its nice being able to plan out a partner for BYP in advance. |
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I think the expansion is great, as I am all over this city at any given time and usually have some time to kill, so the more places i can find a table the better. High Run is a little farther from home, but still do able. As long as the point system works and is accurate. I may not play every week, but I watch the movement and it gives me an idea of what its worth when I am playing certain idividuals. I don't hear too much complaining thus far. Sometimes its better to leave things as they are. A set weekly format is good. I would probably add the team format, which would also add a rotation to the formats. I didn't get to play in the Team one, but was a spectator and enjoyed the spirit. Taking your lumps is part of life, I know that when I play some of the newer guys and they're punching holes in me, I have some work to do and when I play you pro's it helps to set goals as to the level of play I want to achive. Handicapping isn't necessary to me because all anyone needs is a couple of fluky goals and they could take the match, you can't say you haven't seen it happen. It's great when your on the winning end and sucks otherwise. In addition, I like the idea of weekend tournaments, where you get the long hours of play and different formats. You could have a Trophy for it and the winner keeps it until the next Tourney. |
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Right! the weekend tournaments, i really liked those, get to see some faces we dont normally see around on tuesdays. |
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>>I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that your $100 green fees cover that. So should your looney. Even a 9 hole par 3 golf course that costs $20 cuts there grass. You missed the point. If I have to pay for a promoter to clean, level, tighten, fix a table then I better get free play. I prefer a pay as you go. Raise the game price to $1.25 and put the extra $.25 per game into the pot for a monthly tournament. Probably get a couple hundred$$ |
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I think you missed the point too. You wouldnt be paying for a promoter to clean level tighten and fix a table... they do that already. The dues would go towards the larger tournaments, outside of league nights, in which members would get a significant reduction in entry fees. |
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>>They charge a yearly membership to help cover the cost of the league/building rental table maintenance etc. My bad, I thought you were refering to table maintenance |
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I say keep it simple. Keep tables at $1.00. No league fees, as I think this may reduce number of people joining, and some like to drop in seldom while others are regular every week players. However having everyone pitch in for trophy, extra tournemnts, etc etc may work? I would pitch $20 to go towards a nice trophy. The addition of the outlaw game was a great idea as well, and adds to the fun. I would like to see this continue, but maybe changed a little to allow more players a chance. Simons idea of the Outlaw fires back was interesting. Maybe a tiered system where he ahs to score 3, 2, or 1 goal depending on opponents level? Just thinking out loud here, but what if we had a few different tables available as well. I recently got to play on a Bonzini table, and WOW! what a riot.(totally forien and weird) Could have 1 or 2 Retro tables, bonzini, million dollar, 500,000 dollar and so on. As mentioned by Rick J, the team format was a lot of fun as well, and added a new spin on the weekly events. Also if it isnt broke dont fix it seems to make sense as well. |
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>>I think something to be explored is taking a cue from the Edmonton Table Tennis League: >>They charge a yearly membership to help cover the cost of the league/building rental table maintenance etc. But they don't charge anything for a Friday night. There's a drop-in fee of $5 for the night if you're not a member and you get to play all night. I was referring to what they do and tried to explain how it could be put forward for our game. Our leagues are a bit different. They need to pay to rent a gym and their league is quite a bit larger than ours so maybe the membership idea is a bit more viable for them. Also, while you're picking on me, it's spelled loonie, not looney. I never said you had to be a member to play either. drop ins are perfectly acceptable and you're still paying the same to show up on a league night that you are now. Anyway, maybe it's not the best way to go at this point, but having member funded leagues are definitely a better way to grow the sport and find sponsors. I think the league would have alot more bargaining power if the sponsors out there knew we had members that were committed enough that they were paying a league fee and I think we can all agree that having sponsors come on board can only help grow the sport further. |
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Ray, not to split hairs or anything, (I know that's Simon's job) how's having everyone pitch in for a trophy any different than what would be accomplished by charging a league fee? |
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Darcy, I already said "my bad" and the looney typo must have been a Freudian slip. After all I was responding to you |
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hah, i've been called worse. |
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"Also, while you're picking on me, it's spelled loonie, not looney." |
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First off, kudos to Will (and others involved) for great work on mitigating the Gateway issue...apparently so well it's turned out to be a net positive for the league. And for starting this discussion. As a newcomer to the league, most of my feedback is from this perspective, and personally I see growing the league via attracting new players to be a key priority at this time: 1. Points System I'm happy with the current system. I don't particularly care very much precisely how many points I have; it's just nice to see approximately where I stand and how I'm progressing (or regressing). Sticking with the current system (or whatever is easiest) is my vote. If you need people to help managing the data I can definitely fill that void. I am also against any type of points system which penalizes players for irregular league attendance. This will discourage new players or those already on the bubble of dropping out. 2. Format My opinion is set nights would be beneficial to the league. New players should be more likely to come out on a DYP night if they know in advance what week it is. Also just having some general structure to the league's weekly tournaments, instead of adhoc decisions posted on the board each week, adds credibility to the league and the sport in general. We could of course tweak the tournament lineup if feedback warrants it (e.g. no one shows up for the team nights). 3. League Dues & Prices I am against this solely on the grounds that it will decrease our chances of attracting new players. We want to make it as easy as possible for new players to enter the league. Hitting them up for a membership fee, even if only for our major tournaments, will deter some leads on the margin. Keep in mind major tournaments, especially if advertised well, should be a good way to attract new players. The last thing I'd want to do to a new player showing up for a tournament is to charge them more than existing league members. From a player cost and administrative simplicity perspective, funding major tournaments with pay-as-you-go entry fees instead of annual memberships makes the most sense to me: you get what you pay (play) for. I'm strongly opposed to game fees in excess of the loonie to run the table. If the league needs funding to cover table overhead, I would prefer we take a (very small) margin out of each entry fee to build the working capital for this. 4. Major Tournaments and League Trophies I am in favor of this. If funding the trophies is an issue, I would prefer a one-time fee to existing league members, via a fund-raiser tournament (part of the prize pool pays for the trophies, which sucks for those of us who would subsidize the trophies with our entry fees for that tournament, but it's somewhat compensated by getting at shot at being the *first* to get your name on the trophy). If we get trophies, we need someone like Will with excessive foosball knowledge to come up with a historically accurate, storied-sounding name for the highest trophy. 5. Web Presence / League Marketing Related to #4, if we're doing major tournaments periodically, ramping up our marketing efforts would be key to getting the most value out of them, in terms of attracting new players. If we need help publishing the weekly league write-ups and revamping our online presence (as was discussed earlier re: our antiquated Facebook group), I can step up here. I don't have any easy answers or suggestions at the moment, only pointing out if we are starting at new venues and maybe launching periodic major tournaments, we should be ready to hit the ground running. 6. Handicapping I am strongly opposed to this. The last thing I want to see is a rookie player getting on a hot streak and beating other players due to the handicap (i.e. not knowing if they would have *really* won, when they seemingly very well could have). Also handicapping means we have to be very prompt with our points updates and ensure there are no errors week-to-week. I think tiering addresses skill mis-matches sufficiently already, without any of these drawbacks. Generally speaking, player skill levels are dynamic and constantly changing. Applying periodically adjusted handicaps to compensate for these seems like a lot of unecessary work with minimal benefit for the league. The one thing I would be in favor of is handicapping on the entry fee side, e.g. a very low-ranked player pays a reduced entry fee. That's it from me, can't wait to see the new venue at Dukes tonight! |
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Points: These seem pretty good, updates (somewhat regularly) just a thought...its always cool to have computers to enter the data live. makes the charts disappearing a thing of the past... maybe somebody that works in the IT department of some large company can borrow some old parts...and donate this to the efl Tiered: I am all for tiered events when it comes to singles and byp(open doubles) that being said, i think that the top 16...has to go by points strictly....if someone has a good week in the am tier and moves into the top tier and gets smoked, the points will readjust where they should be playing. Membership: I think that the EFL or even an Alberta Foosball League should have dues. With a formal organization comes operating budgets that can be counted on, ads can be placed to promote the league, halls can be rented to have major tournys...etc Im not saying as soon as someone comes out to a tuesday /thursday night they gotta fork over 100 bucks...but hell you can say play ten times in the league before the membership has to be paid. or even charge a little extra till their dues are paid. This just takes a little organization. Major Tourneys: Thinking back to the Fireball in West Ed, i lost to some pretty good ams. Where the hell are these guys now?? Some more 1000 buck every 2nd month shows that foos is alive and good in edmonton Dukes was awesome...everyone knows i have been hating on gateway for along time...really looking forward to High Run club Just thinking of the chances of having a Tuesday Thursday tournament at two really good locations two months ago wasn't an option |
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also down the road, think that membership dues could possibly buy a different types of table...bonzini, or fireball to play and grow the skill of the league. I think alot of people would if they get the chance love to be skilled enough to play for Team Canada at an event outside of North America. But not having the exposure on the different tables really limits us. |
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Are you refering to dues for a club or dues that are paid to Will and Chads business. As long as the club is a separate entity from the business then dues toward the purchase of a table might work. The club would own the table, however it would be in conflict of the business if it was taking revenue away from Will and Chad. If the dues go toward buying a table that will be owned by Will and Chad and then players are charged to play on the table sound like a sweet deal.......for Will and Chad. |
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I don't agree with league funding going towards any ones pocket either, so maybe that's where i could have clarified. If we were to be interested in starting a league fund with dues it should be an independent board elected by the members of the league. The money could go into an account that requires two signatures to release funds and we would vote on what to do with the funds. |
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Thinking this thru, If your talking about starting a Non-Profit society or association, then are you talking what geographical area? City or all of AB, I guess you could have different chapters Calgary etc. It's easy to do, but it's no small task to maintain. Long term vision by everyone is a huge aspect of it. It is one way to work towards funding teams that go to major tournaments, but then you run into the fact that everyone pays, but not everyone gets to go. With the board making the decisions, whats in it for the general membership? I don't know how TSAC works or what the benefit is for being a member. As Edmonton Foosball is a business, then the owners have costs to maintain it, we are just their customers, sometimes thats the best way. a lot less liability. |
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>>I don't know how TSAC works or what the benefit is for being a member. “The Table Soccer Association of Canada (T.S.A.C.), in partnership with its members, is dedicated to promoting the growth and development of, and providing leadership for, table-soccer for all Canadians at all levels.” |
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So, is that what you have in mind for us out here Darcy? Maybe, look at being the AB Chapter of T.S.A.C. If they have everything in place, it saves a lot of headaches. Just a thought. I say that because I am a member of a National organization with Provincial chapters and the AB board governs AB and what it does to grow the sport (also controls the $ generated in AB), it meets with and brings our voice to the Nat body which promotes and grow the sport internationally. I'm just trying to figure out what the benefits are for us if we start an Association. If your talking about helping finance tournament trips that would be ok if there was a rotation system for newer players or team, so they get to experience major tournament play, but, as it is anyone can go to any major as long as they pay. Maybe I'm not understanding this, feel free to fill me in. Here's a thought, maybe talk to Edmonton Foosball into selling shares, then everyone that buys shares will promote it and we all reap the benifits? |
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The funds could be used for lots of things, trips to tournaments, update a website with active content, hold a 100% payback weekend tournament at a local establishment, pay for a pro-master from the states to come to a tournament and hold a clinic... anything really. We all want the community to grow and flourish. Mostly I was just trying to open those lines of communication and get everyone talking about what's best for the community and what the best way to go about setting that in motion would be. |
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