Calgary & Edmonton & Saskatoon
| Topic: Canadian Pro Tour Announcement |
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http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/ Look under the Canadian Pro Tour tab, and the subtab for Clubs. |
Posted: Feb 6 2012 4:38PM
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The Canadian Pro Tour consists of Club, Regional, and National level events. Each Club can report one monthly Open Singles and Open Doubles result. Each Region will report between one and four annual Open Singles and Open Doubles results. TSAC will record one National Open Singles and Open Doubles Championship result. The Point system will be a points race, resetting annually. Club level tournaments: 1st: 10 2nd: 8 3rd: 6 4th: 4 5/6: 2 Regional Level: 1st: 50 2nd: 40 3rd: 30 4th: 20 5/6: 10 7/8: 5 National Level: 1st: 500 2nd: 300 3rd: 200 4th: 100 5/6: 60 7/8: 40 9/12: 20 13/16: 10 Each players points will be calculated based on a maximum of the best 20 Tournaments they enter. National Points will be updated on the 1st of each month. The points system starts in February and ends in October after the National Championships. The ITSF Canadian National Champion will be the Player and Team that win Open Singles and Open Doubles at the National Championships. The Player and Team that get to compete as the Wild Card at the ITSF World Championships will be the highest Singles players and Doubles Players based on the Points system. These will take effect for the ITSF World Championships in January 2013. |
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The Table Soccer Association of Canada is excited to announce a restructuring of Foosball in Canada and the Canadian Pro Tour. The foundation for the future of Canadian Foosball is the creation of Canadian Foosball Clubs, and a restructuring of our Association as a whole. The goal for each Canadian Foosball Club is to grow the sport of Foosball at a local level through both participation and awareness of the sport. They will accomplish this by developing the sport at a grassroots level, offering training to members, and supporting the athletes locally and internationally. The only eligible parties able to run ranked tournaments in Canada are: ■Table Soccer Association of Canada (National Level) ■Regional Associations (National and Regional Level) ■Canadian Foosball Clubs (Local and Regional Level) The Table Soccer Association of Canada will approve qualified Regional Associations based on the strength of application. Each region can only be represented by one Association, at the discretion of the TSAC Board. Regional Associations will be responsible for: ■Accepting and approving applications of Canadian Foosball Clubs ■Organizing between one and four Regional tournaments per year ■Informing Clubs of National and Regional level events ■Informing Clubs of any National level announcements ■Entering results of Club and Regional level events into the National website ■Announce Regional Tournaments at least one month in advance ■Regional Associations can apply to host the Canadian National Championships Application for a Regional Association must include: Regional Association Name: Regional Association President: Regional Association VP(if applicable): Phone Number: Email Address: Address: Web Site: Club names that are governed by the Regional Association: Please submit your application to create a Regional Association to will_stranks@hotmail.com If your area does not yet have a Regional Association, you can register a Club directly to TSAC, instead of registering the Club to your Regional Association. Canadian Foosball Club responsibilities are: ■Accept registrations from players, to become official club members ■Offer Preliminary Memberships to new players for up to one month ■Organize weekly events for its members ■Organize one monthly Open Singles and Doubles event. ■Report results to the Regional Association and post results on the TSAC website ■Send a team to represent the Club at the National Club Championships ■Announce Club Tournaments at least one week in advance ■Ensure all club members register a profile with a their actual email address on the TSAC site Application for a Club should include: President: Vice President(if applicable): Club Phone Number: Club Email Address: Club Web Site: Club Address: Number and Type of Tables: Please submit your application to create a Regional Association to will_stranks@hotmail.com Players are permitted to play tournaments at any club in any region once they are members. Clubs may not allow players to compete without a Membership or Preliminary Membership - it will void the results of an event if unregistered players compete. |
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Anyone from Van want to set one up here? If so, maybe start another thread so we are not spamming this one. |
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Question, it doesn't seem like this points system deals with player rankings at all, so what is going to be the process for determining rank at regional/national events? |
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Actually I should clarify a bit on my question. I understand that only Open events qualify for points, but I'm assuming that regional/national events will still have amateur/expert categories for which player rank would need to be determined. Perhaps I'm just wrong with my assumption. |
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The process for that will remain the same as in the past. At my tournaments the same rankings will apply.. In Ottawa and Quebec they have their own ranking system for which players are allowed to play in which ranks. So nothing will change in that aspect. This just adds some incentive for the players in different regions to organize local tournaments. If a player in a city that doesn't have tournaments wants to, they can just put a post on the message board saying they will post results from a tournament on a day that is a week in advance.. then show up with charts, draw up an event... and then submit the results. Its really easy and doesn't take much time. But if we get enough people doing it we can have a truly organized system here. |
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Jeff, I nominate you! hohohohoho |
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Haha maybe if I owned the tables. Otherwise I don't have much of a vested interest. |
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It's apparent you were in a room for a long time by yourself Will. |
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So if I'm reading it correctly this Saturday is Open Singles and Open Doubles? 2 tables? |
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we have a different thread about that Garry, but yes. Jeff - If you do start a "Club" you can charge a membership fee. I know at the club that I am running, I won't be charging a membership fee... but then again I do own the tables in one of our locations. It isn't up to TSAC whether or not clubs charge a fee, but it is left open for clubs to be able to do that if they want to. Especially if it means one day the club could buy tables and run them on free play or put them in a location that isn't a bar. If you charged a $5 monthly registration fee you probably wouldn't scare people away. You would be offering BC a service that isn't being provided unless you do it, so if I was a player in Vancouver or Victoria I would wholeheartedly support that decision. |
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hardboiled - I didn't have a lot of time in a room alone. I attended the ITSF Congress in France with the other Presidents of the Federations. Klaus from Germany talked about how he has developed and grown foosball in Germany. This is the first step he took, and we will be following the same path they have taken. 10 years ago in Germany they had 0 registered Foosball clubs, now they have 300. They also have 6000 players registered, and recently landed $40,000 in sponsorship money added into a DYP tour. There clubs play in leagues against each other too. It is really cool... |
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Will - my bad, I should have been clear. My statement is that you went off without consulting existing promoters in Canada, absent a plan to schedule and sync tournaments. Instead, we have indeterminate events and no coherent plan for this year, with the exception of a 'national' championship in Schmengeville in October. That's what I meant by going 'off in a room by yourself'. Perhaps you have consulted others, maybe just not Calgary Foos? I didn't hear from you. I appreciate a person stepping up to do a generally thankless job. Whatever this game is, it does need coherent leadership and open, transparent design and prosecution. A sidebar....as well as having 66 million people in a country the size of Montana, the Germans are German. two questions: 1. Are your 'nationals' on Fireball or Tornado? 2. what do these parallel rankings achieve if they don't bump into the existing rankings? cheers  |
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The plan is simple... anyone can register a club, and run an event. If you would like to do it that is about as clear as it can get. I really hope Calgary foos decides to join as other clubs have already. What I learned in France is that I just need to create the option for other people to run tournaments, not run the tournaments myself. The ITSF tour is built around tournaments that are organized by other people. Our Canadian tour will be the same. We already have Saskfoos, two clubs in quebec, Toronto, Edmonton, and Ottawa. Several clubs have run or are running events in February, to get a jumpstart on the points. If you want to get in on it just send me an email with the required information from the 3rd post on this thread. Canadian Nationals isn't mine, it has been spread around the country over the past few years and will continue to be treated like that. TSAC will approve Nationals applications once they come in, so far no one has volunteered to run it. I'd be thrilled if someone else wants to, but if it falls to me doing it I'll run it in Edmonton. To answer your questions: 1. The Nationals can be on any table, Bonzini, Fireball, Roberto Sport, Garlando, Tornado, Fabi, Warrior, Lehmacher.. or a combination of tables preferably. I'd love to see multitable action in Canada. Right now they are doing some in Toronto and Quebec... we don't have it out West yet but if we did it would be great for foosball. 2. The Points are not "rankings". They are strictly a points race. Clearly some players could not play for a year and have 0 points. That doesn't mean they should be a rookie... Just like if someone plays in 20 events in a year and gets a lot of points, they don't need to be a Pro Master.. It is a points race. Whoever accumulates the most points wins. |
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Ok. From above, what do these sparklepoints mean then? Does the club level integrate with national rankings? Does it have determination for national team selection? Are there to be inter-club only tournaments? If so, what's TSAC putting forward for inter-club? It doesn't look to me like you've gone very far with this, outside of the idea of sparklepoints. Secondly Will, from above: "What I learned in France is that I just need to create the option for other people to run tournaments" Really? Like, really? |
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Andy, it's 2012. They are no longer called Sparkle Points. There now called Bling Points  |
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I like sparkle. |
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Sparkle is better than Bling for sure. Sparklepoints are awesome. Hardboiled: Really (i'll write an answer to your real questions and email when I have some more time) |
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“From above, what do these sparklepoints mean then?” The Canadian Pro Tour Points will be listed on the TSAC web site every month. The points don’t determine a players rank, they are just points. Players can try to accumulate as many as possible and end up the year as high as they can on the points list. “Does the club level integrate with national rankings?” National rankings don’t really exist either. If you went to a Bonzini tournament in Quebec they would probably let you play Amatuer, if you went to a regional in Toronto maybe you could play as an Expert, where as in Edmonton or Calgary you are a Pro. The club level events, like the regional events and the National Championships all add to players point totals for the year. At the end of the year the points reset and start over for the next year. “Does it have determination for national team selection?” Whoever has the most points is allowed to represent Canada at the World Championships in France as the “Wild Card” for both Singles and Doubles. The winner of the National Championships gets to represent Canada as the National Champion. This is separate from the “World Cup Team” which can be chosen in any method that TSAC determines, as it has in the past. “Are there to be inter-club only tournaments? If so, what's TSAC putting forward for inter-club?” At the Canadian Nationals there will be a club event where each club plays against the other clubs to see which club is the National Champion Club. Clubs could challenge each other, but nothing has been organized yet on that front. “It doesn't look to me like you've gone very far with this, outside of the idea of sparklepoints.” I guess I have ONLY done way more than what you are doing, which is simply to complain about someone that is actually taking action without even making a suggestion on how to improve for next year. “Secondly Will, from above: "What I learned in France is that I just need to create the option for other people to run tournaments" Really?” Yeah. It was one of the most basic but important items of a two day congress run by the ITSF. Every national federation needs to create the ability for promoters to register their tournaments to the National Federation. We kept ours very simple. Anyone can become a promoter for this very easily, without even buying tables. If any player wants to make sure they can accumulate points, they just need to send an email registering a club and then post on the message board saying that they are going to have a chart ready at a table. They show up at the scheduled time and then submit results after. It takes virtually no effort, but it will get us a complete national tour without any one person doing all the work. It is the only way to do this without a large amount of funding. I’m not saying that you have to do anything Andy. You can just sit and let it happen around you, that’s the beauty of it. If you do want to get involved, now is the time. Just register a club and then start sending in results. If you don’t want to, in time hopefully someone from Calgary will. If not then Calgary players won’t accumulate many points, which they can either care about or not. |
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An update on how this has progressed so far. Regional Associations have been created in: Alberta Ontario Quebec Not yet created: Saskatchewan BC Club's have been registered in: Edmonton Saskatoon Regina Quebec Montreal Toronto Ottawa Not Yet registered: Vancouver Calgary By the April 1st points update, almost every player in Canada will have had the opportunity to compete for points in the National Points Race. Its not to late to get involved. |
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Canadian Points are updated on the TSAC site |
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Will - what are the defined boundaries between a club level event, a regional level event, and a national level event? |
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A regional association must approve a tournament to be qualified as regional status... Each region is allowed up to 3 per year. Hopefully in time the points will attract a few extra players, but probably not players more than 2-3 hours away. Club's run monthly events, these will be almost entirely local players unless someone just happens to be in town or something. National level events must be approved by TSAC, and will only be Canadian Nationals each year. It has been discussed that there is potential for a Nationals West and Nationals East, so there could be two National level events each year. |
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Thanks for the reply Will, although you assume too much of me. I hadn't thought we were finished discussing this in email, so I'll keep this short for now. Of many concerns I have, one is that this creates a parallel national ranking system, that is arbitrary. Where 'points' can be accumulated in someone's basement. As well, you haven't delivered a national ranking of players - despite having more years of data available to you. I don't believe breaking a small market into smaller markets helps. Moreso, Germany is a nation with 66 million people iin an area the size of Montana. Not alot of parallels. Another concern is two nationals? When is the 'National Nationals' tournament? Why not just make two 'national' organizations? My personal view is that a National Association has a simple mandate to provide an independent framework for rating and ranking players, organizing tournaments, and administrating the game for the benefit of all - amateur through 'professional'. Right now, the 'Canadian Pro Tour' doesn't have an event, nor any touring. No prize money announced. No locations. To me, that's not a Tour. If you'd approached existing resources with a plan, it'd have been easy to get a 4-5 stop 'Tour' up. Don't get me wrong. The existing framework has not led to much growth, I know that. But I am throwing amatuer tournaments, and making league and DYP series events available for our players ongoing. As well as a good sized shaker planned for this fall. It's not going to be in my basement though. We'll talk more down here - and post shortly with the rest. |
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The Canadian Pro Tour is no different than the ITSF Pro Tour. They don't organize any tournaments except for the World Cup (similar to Nationals from our standpoint). They announce a tour and then let people add events to the tour - exactly like we are doing here. You said that we don't even have an "Event", yet already two have been run, and several more have been announced. It is working exactly as planned if not better, so far. I know that Germany is clearly a different situation, but it is one of the only situations that has worked - and for us to copy a country we might as well go with one that has had success in growing. I'll finish off by saying that obviously I could have done MORE than I have, but I have limited resources, time and effort. As it is I put several hours each day into promoting Foosball, so doing more isn't really an option unless this was my job. I set up a framework for a tour as was suggested at the ITSF Congress, and it has worked so far exactly as they suggested that it would. |
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"If you'd approached existing resources with a plan, it'd have been easy to get a 4-5 stop 'Tour' up." Why do I have to approach you secretly behind closed doors? By creating this framework I have approached all existing resources... Everyone knows, and all of the other promoters are on board. In some cities that promoters didn't get on board we have players that decided to form a club and announce events. |
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Will - it's been a challenge for me to distill my thoughts on your 'clubbing tour'. There's so many things I believe it falls short in. Let me hit on the three big ones, and leave it there. I'm not speaking for any players but myself, and only myself. From 30 years experience in competitive events, from darts, foosball, pool, and baseball, I've seen that for any 'National Association' of a game or sport to be successful, it needs 3 elements. #1 - An impartial Ranking/Rating system that permits players to compete against like talent This club thing ignores years of historical outcomes and rankings, and annually resets. It can (and will) be gerrymandered in regions. And worse, the notion of 'wildcards' is beneath comment. Spots should be awarded on merit - and spots could and should simply be held open for the highest Expert and Amateur players in the nation. But, we have no rankings, and no merit. One gets annually reseting sparklepoints that can be accumulated in a guys' basement. You just win! Which brings me to what they are worth..... #2 - Money Without payouts and cash, there is nothing. It don't have to be alot of cash, but I've never seen a player who comes to one of my shows who isn't interested about payouts. Cash. Hardware. Jackets. This is a necessary part, and big purpose behind anyone taking a risk at running a large event. Your club model ignores it completely, but for looking down the road for sponsors. In any case, I don't believe that's a plan, I think that's a hope. VIFA has become roadkill because it was too regional and had no money. #3 - Organization In the early 90's, bar pool was regionalized, unorganized, and had different quality of tables and differing rules from location to location. The organizers brought homogeneous rules, standard payouts, and regular fixed play. With several events along the season for competition and team/personal benchmarking. And - it presented money as the reason for it all. Players got behind the idea, and this province went from 4 underperforming zones into a league that had more than 20,000 players in this province in 7 years. Organization that provided consistency in terms of cash payouts, regularly timed events, 4-5 larger ones (preset annuals) that people could plan for. These are large events that require neutral/changing places to play for players. Now, pool ain't foosball. And I know foos' penetration is not that deep. But the parallels are identical. I believe that consistent events, within a financial model that has impartial, independent and transparent rankings is the best way to move something out of factionalized/local interest into a sustainable national association. Regionals that can reward differing levels of play to award packages and traveling $dough$ to winners. I believe the model you're prosecuting will result in regional bias, and will be unable to maintain interest. It ghettos the game here into basements, and puts points in as a proxy for actual achievment. Using existing promoters with locations and tables is a simple way to align this, and present an actual vision of 3, 5, and 7 years from now what the national organization could or should be. How the players want it to look like. Not how a European club system exists. I've spent enough time on this topic. As a player, and as a promoter, I simply don't believe it's a long term vision for organizing a 'National Association'. I was humiliated to see a self selecting 'National Team' present itself at an international event, and feel strongly about that. It's probably where emotion comes into it for me. I've played with members of the Dutch and Czech national teams, and I know what they go through. It's embarrasses me greatly. Ive been lucky enough to have been exposed to the club system in Czeckoslovakia and the Netherlands over the past couple of years. I've seen it. It works pretty well. Their pool leagues follow a similar format. And the Netherlands fits in between Calgary and Edmonton. They have a population of 16 million. Independent rankings. Organization. A 'Tour'. Money. That's a vision to me. What you are prosecuting, I don't believe is one, and I think in a couple of years it will stagnate, and regionally retrench. The game has given me alot over the 30 years I've been playing it. It's given me alot of laughs, many friendships, and much personal growth. It's worth enough to me to speak my peace, and I appreciate the opportunity to do so. hb |
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I agree with most points listed, but I think its worth doing it this way because there isn't 10 people like me out there doing this. I'd also contest the money aspect. In Europe it is not about the money.. the World Cup is so intense, and players travel from 40 different countries to compete... with no prize money. Title's are more important to people in general. In Canada and the US we have sort of trained ourselves to care about the money a lot, but realistically there isn't enough money in foos to make it matter much. Overall though I agree with your post, it would be great to have all that stuff, but that takes an organization with combined efforts. I'd be a part of an organization like that if someone else wanted to make it happen. I'd volunteer some time towards making it happen. |
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Andy,let me first say that the most important thing you have touched on, that which should always be paramount in everyone's mind,is the notion of merit and how it should impact such things. However,as with many other things in life,foosball has been--and will always be--impacted by politics and other unimportant things that have no place in our game.Moreover,it would take 50 people like Will throughout the country to achieve anything comparable to,say,the U.S. Overall,irrespective of the criticisms,Will, you are doing a laudable job of promoting our game.As always,your efforts should be recognized. Nonetheless,and this is where criticisms are invaluable,you must treat our game with care.And this might be what Andy is alluding to,Will.That is,the integrity of our game,and the achievements within it,should never be brought into question. |
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what the hell is with the double spacing all the time? |
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Good contribution Darcy |
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I think Joey wanted to have a long post like Andy |
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Hear, hear, Darcy. Well done. Eloquent as always. |
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Would also like to comment that I think it was a good post. Not the double spaced poem, the other one. |
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I think that everyone's points are valid. And although nobody likes to be critiqued, having an open forum or discussion is valuable because it brings forward differing issues that may not be the same for every city. Will and Andy are keeping the dream alive for alot of foosers, and their efforts generally are appreciated by us all! |
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I agree great post Garry |
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T Y  |
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Y'all can't take anything seriously! |
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I think it's more likely Joe that nobody gives a shit. "I'd volunteer some time towards making it happen" Ok Will, how about starting with rankings? That's simple, and its' been done. You just have to lead. |
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I'm ok with rankings being different in different parts of the country, actually. |
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If they are on different tables, of course. If it's an overall ranking, that's a fail. You either have national rankings, or you don't. If you want to ghetto the competitive game into a club model, it'll fail in Canada due to a lack of population base. If you want to induce a format change in Canada (with the Fireball) using a club model, it will cleave a small community. Beta/VHS. 2 smaller groups islanded from each other. Either or, there's no vision apparent to me. Rankings are simple. Post them. Present a 4 stop Tour. Those 3 hours a day could really be put to good use..... |
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"I'd be a part of an organization like that if someone else wanted to make it happen" Ummm, why exactly is it then that you wanted to be President of TSAC? |
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The clubs can be on any tables, preferably like TeamPlay where they have several types of tables. It should be a focus to have more place like that in Canada. That is a main point for the club system. I wanted to be the president of TSAC because before me nothing was progressing. Eric put in a fair amount of effort but claimed several times that he didn't want to create a new point system or tour or anything. We now have both a Pro Tour with events that have already happened and are scheduled for the future, we also have a point system with updates released. That is progress. At some point maybe we will be able to rank players across the country but currently there is no way to do that fairly and no exceptional need for it either. |
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Easy does it,Flying Dutchman,I can see you are bit put off by some things. However,let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater,especially when the baby is making an effort!(And,Will,hand to God,I will never call you baby again!) It would be particularly unfortunate for the two individuals who are primarily responsible for putting on tournaments in this province to take each other out.That is,the tack this dialogue is taking will get us no- where fast.But it is good to see some heart from both you.I find this more reassuring then apathy. By way of a solution,why not broker an agreement which sees each city, spearheaded by the two principals,agree to host two tournaments per calendar year.It just seems to me that before we can have an elaborate foosball community,we have to have a base of support from which to draw. The foundation of that base are foosballers.And foosballers tend to rear their heads most at tournaments.With a set schedule of tournaments,something Andy has touched on above,all of us have an opportunity to showcase our skills and win tournaments.Without consistent tournaments being put on,interest begins to wane. |
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Sounds good to me Joe. |
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Andy? |
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Good idea. Always. It doesn't make the 'national team' selection any less arbitrary. And if we don't need rankings (or can't get rankings), why not just do a national team selection by drawing names? That would be fair. But where we are at now? "We can't do rankings fairly, but we're gonna compile points to determine rankings" |
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Why do you put quotes around something that I never said and isn't even close to any point I was trying to make. Its more like this. "We could possibly do rankings if we wanted to, but that isn't what we are trying to accomplish right now". I already have a project that I'm working on. Either do something productive and add to or improve what I'm working on or just mind your own business and carry on as usual. For what its worth, last years team selection was probalby the smoothest it has ever been. It put our best possible team together too. Not everyone that was selected decided to attend, but from the people that said they were interested in going, everyone agreed on who the best 7 were. Having a different way to select our national team isn't really an issue until we have some sort of funding. |
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This is like trying to mediate the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians.Let's try this.Since Andy is putting on an amateur tournament, Will,would you be up for putting on a regular tournament -on Tornado- at the end of June? |
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All of the official foosball clubs in Canada have committed to run one a month, and the regions are running 3 per year of a slightly larger scale. We already did one, we'll do anther near the end of March, then again in April. Come up to one of them Joe! There are already 7 clubs in Canada signed up for the tour and I'm guessing more will follow. Hopefully Calgary too. It doesn't have to be the owner of tables or an existing promoter, either. Lance Radke is running the Regina one - he is a perfect example of what this club system is meant to achieve. Get people promoting foosball that otherwise wouldn't have done it. If Andy is up for it that is cool, but if not then he doesn't need to have any more responsibility than he already has taken on. It is tough to put tables in bars and maintain them etc. even without the added responsibility of running tournaments. At least with Andy and Brian there are nice new tables with good balls and lighting to practice on. So if other people want to play, why not Linda or Tony or Joe? If no one is interested in playing then that is fine, but hundreds of players across the country are taking part already. If someone wants to, send me an email and then I'll send you charts to use. Announce a tournament at a time convenient for you at a location - probably juliets makes the most sense from my understanding. Then go in and run a singles and doubles with an 8 or 16 chart, its very simple. |
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