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Calgary & Edmonton & Vancouver & TSAC
| Topic: TSAC accepting applications: 2009 World Cup Team |
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TSAC is accepting serious applications for the remaining 8 spots on the World Cup team that is to compete at the ITSF World Cup in Nante, France, Jan 8-12, 2009. The team is a men's team, but women may participate because we are not sending a women's team. The team must have a minimum of 6 players. A maximum of 10 players can be sent by each country. Two spots have already been filled by being the highest placing Canadians (that were willing to pay their own way to France) in open singles at either the Ottawa or Las Vegas tournaments. These players are Eric Dunn and Matt Botros. but we can still fill 8 more spots. Deadline for applications is Oct 24th, 11:59 pm PST, 2009 Applications must come in the form of an email to Eric Dunn (dunneri@shaw.ca) and must accompany a $100 deposit via paypal (to the same email address). The deposit is going to be returned, but will be forfeit if a player is chosen to go, but they eventually don't for go any reason other than illness or injury. So if you don't make the team, you'll get your deposit back, and if you do make the team, and get yourself to France, you get the deposit back. If a player sends in their application, they are stating that if they are chosen for the team, the player will pay all expenses to travel to and from France, and pay their own stay (hotel, food, transportation) while in France. The player will also pay for their own uniform. Estimated costs are as follows: Airfare: $900-$1400 (depending on departure city) Transportation in France ($150) Hotel (5 nights - sharing cost of room with 3 others = $250) Uniform $300 (ITSF states that team members must have 4 shirts, and matching track suit - top and bottom) Total (Estimated) cost = $1850 to $2350 Prizes have yet to be announced, (keep checking http://www.table-soccer.org/worldcup/team.php ) Although the majority of players that have expressed interest initially are Tornado players, the home table will be decided by the team members once assembled. Players that have experience on any of the 5 official ITSF tables (Torando, Euro Garlando, Roberto Sport, TecBall, or Bonzini) are encouraged to apply. Especially players that have experience on more than 1 of the official tables. Applicants are encouraged to include their table experiences / preference in the application email. Once all applications are received (on Oct 24th) the following method will be used to determine who gets on the team: TSAC must inform the ITSF by Nov 15th the names of all players on the team. If less than 4 applications are received - then we cannot legally field a team If 8 or less applications are received - than all the applicants are given a spot on the team. If more than 8 applications are received, then the remaining 8 spots will be determined by selection committee: The Selection Committee will be the ITSF Committee (as voted by the TSAC Executive). The ITSF Committee consists of of Brian Leopky, Ahmed Taha, Mario Iannuzzi, Eric Dunn, and Audrey Banville Pelletier 1. The selection committee will rank each player on various criteria (like multi-table ability, singles, doubles, experience, international exposure, ITSF ranking, past finishes, recent finishes, team chemistry, etc), and the applicants that rank the highest earn the spots, the remaining players will be on reserve. The ITSF committee will post the exact list of criteria applicants will be ranked on by Oct 17. The World Cup format will exist of a number of round robiin matches agaisnt other countries in our pool, followed by a single elimation finals round. so lots of foosball will be played. Some of the players on the world cup team will be able to be Canada's National Champions and/or wildcards, and be able to play in the ITSF World Championships in Singles and/or< |
Posted: Oct 11 2008 2:10PM
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please go to http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=1985405%3ATopic%3A2443 to ask any questions |
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bump - only 1 week left!! |
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one day left!!!! We need more players or we won't be able to form a team! |
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I tried to apply already. I just couldn't do the deposit. |
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Pepperoo, I managed to make the deposit. If you wish, I could probably make another one for you and you can pay me at a later date. Whiner |
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Sure Tim. I don't have a problem with that. |
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Pepper, Now PayPal is refusing to let me make a deposit - it handled the first one for me but is rejecting the second one. I emailed Eric to let him know. Tim |
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Tim - I am trying to read the other board but am getting confused - do I have to do anything else/more? |
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Jeff, no you don't have to do anything more. So at the tournament in France there are three events in which you probably care about. ITSF World Cup ITSF World Championships - Mens Singles ITSF World Championships - Mens Doubles There is now an additional round of accepting applications for the World Cup team, and you're already in it. Tim and I have worked out your deposit. on the 29th, if no other applications have been recieved, then you're on the team. After the 29th, you and the 6 other world cup team members will be ranked according to a set of criteria - to see who gets to play singles and/or doubles which is a seperate event from the World Cup that is occuring at the same time and at the same location. You're likely on the World Cup team - but TSAC can only send 1 player to enter the Men's Singles. and TSAC can only send 2 teams to compete in the Men's Doubles. The ranking exercise will determine who gets to fill those spots. hope that clears things up |
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oh if you do not wish to play in Men's Singles or Men's Doubles let me know before the 29th. |
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I am interested in both:) |
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Jeff, just to let you know, The 2nd round of applications is over, and you're on the World Cup team. In the next couple days, the ITSF Committee will announce the results of the ranking exercise that will determine who gets to play in Men's Singles and Men's Doubles. Just to let everyone else know, there's still room and time to apply to get on the team. Until Nov 10th we're still accepting applications. |
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Where are the top 3 Canadian players? Kane, Mario and Moya? |
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Hey David.. Waaaaaaaaaaaay too costly.  Moya |
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I found flights for around 700 (direct). So it isn't too too too bad. And if you spend some time in europe afterwards (I may go to Beglium for a beer bender after), its a decent vacation. |
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Oh, and thanks Eric! |
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damn pepper share a link. That's an awesome price. Tell us what airline. There's tim darren and I that could all fly with you |
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Here are the rankings for the national champions and wild card doubles from the ITSF committee. 1. Singles champion- Eric Dunn 2. Doubles Champions – Eric Dunn, Matt Botros 3. Wild card doubles - Julien Beaumier-Ethier, Dominic Auger |
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Out of 5 the final average rankings were Eric- 4.09, Matt 2.91, Julien 2.73, Dominic 2.64, Jeff 2.36, Tim/Daren - 2.09 |
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Ranking Criteria Tornado Bonzini Garlando Tec ball Roberto sport Doubles Singles Itsf ranking International experience Recent finishes past finishes |
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Are you sure the ranking criteria was used at all? If so, those results make absolutley no sense. At least not for Doubles or Wild Card Doubles. |
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Hey Jeff All the criterias were used and then the total points were calculated. The top 4 point totals were then awarded: 1st = Single champion, Double champion 2nd = Double champion (will play with the 1st) 3rd = Wild card doubles team 4th = Wild card doubles team |
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just curious, why does the first place finisher get to play both singles and doubles? It would be nice to see other players get a chance to play in this since they are spending a bit of money to get there. |
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Simon the World cup and World championship are 2 different events. The awarding of the 1st place ranking as the national singles and doubles champion is the same as last year. It was thought that the top singles qualifier would also be the top doubles qualifier. We did not intend to try to increase the number of people who would qualify. We tried to assemble what we thought were the strongest teams based on the criteria we used. Thanks for the feedback. |
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Right so the criteria - is that the ITSF Doubles and then singles points, or is that USTSF Doubles points, then singles points, and then your itsf ranking (for singles or doubles??). Looking at the players, and my points, it doesn't make sense to me at this point. Also, if the USTF points book was used, it doesn't include the points earned for anything past HOF so its not entirely up-to-date either. And what constitutes International experience? Playing in the states, or playing on all the tables in an international event? |
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Criteria was this: Tornado, Bonzini, Garlando, Tec ball, Roberto sport - how good relative to the other players is this person on this table. Yes this is subjective - and left up to each ranker how they determined this. Doubles, Singles - again its how good relative to the other players is this player. Itsf ranking: ITSF ranking of doubles plus singles, and yes Jeff ranked 2nd highest compared to the other players in consideration International experience Recent finishes past finishes - again all subjective - and left to the ranker as to how to rank the players. If you're wondering how Julien and Dominic ended up with a higher average ranking, it pretty much boiled down to the experience on the other tables. I know it sucks ending up on the short end of a selection process, but it's the best we could do given the short period of time. |
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and just for clarity - neither myself nor Audrey (julien's girlfriend) were involved in the ranking process due to COI. |
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Can someone post all the results? If something subjective was used to grade me, I would like to know about it. Especially when the only method of rating someone that isn't subjective apparently had little to no weighting. Did Julien and Dominic travel this year to play on tables other than bonzini, maybe the itsf website did not register all these multi-table results. |
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I don't see the value in posting the detailed rankings. The only thing that will happen is people will find the rating that they disagree with and say something about it. The ranking committee will then feel they have to defend their choices. We posted how this was going to work - no one said anything. I'm willing to give you a general idea of how the rankings went down, but i see no value in posting the exact numbers that were used. Looking at the criteria used, i would agree with how the rankings turned out. |
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Since, the response to 'my willing to give a general idea' is probably yes, i'll outline it here On tornado, you were ranked higher On bonzini, they were ranked much higher On Garlando they were ranked higher on the other tables, about the same doubles and singles, about the same itsf ranking, you were higher international xp, the same recent finishes, about the same it was extremely close with .37 of a point between the three of you. |
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Everything should be disclosed for all categories to protect people from being scammed. If one cannot defend their position, then why should they be in a position of power? This whole thing, to me, is looking as shaky as it did when Adam Reid was running it. Tim placed second to frederico in the last international cup against the best players from each country, has played on all the tables (as have I), is a pro in the states, yet is listed with the same points as Darren. It's not just my points that I have a problem with, but four people have alot of power here, and I want to make sure its not about pushing a few peoples personal passions. |
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And what the formats for each of these tournaments? I can't find that information anywhere. |
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Sigh. first off this is no where near the same as what happened with Adam. They chose themselves to be put in power - no one voted for them.. They chose the method in which things would be done. and they chose themselves in the end. There's an elected group of people that all the players had a chance to vote in. They represent you. They put together and accepted a constitution in which they follow to the best of their abilities. Our constitution is always posted for all to see: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:94 In this constitution it states that the ITSF committee handles all matters concerning the ITSF. See section 10 in that document. We recently asked for more people to join the ITSF Committee to have better cross canada / table representation - some did (Mario Ianuzzi and Audrey). Whenever a member of the ITSF committee is in a COI they remove themselves as dictated by our constitution. We are very careful of this cause we're also players and yes, we're in a position of power (as given to us by the players). Given what i've said above would normally be enough for us to say, "this is the system, if you don't like it, get involved, or tell your representative (Tim in your case) or vote for someone else". But I understand your position, and will offer to open up the ITSF Committee private group to you - so you can see exactly for yourself the process and method in which we came to this eventual conclusion. I shouldnt have to, but it's understandable from your end that it would be hard to just 'trust' what is going on. Anyone else that would like to have access to the ITSF Committee group, please let me know. The group was setup as private to start with and its only due to technical limitations that i don't just make it public to everyone. Once a group is created as private - it cannot be changed to public. But we can invite who ever requests it - i'll need your email address to do so. or you can hit the "Request Access" link at: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/group/itsfcommittee i think you have to sign up for a ning account before that pages works though. |
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and the format for the ITSF World cup and World Championships is all documented on the ITSF Website: World Cup: http://www.table-soccer.org/worldcup/team.php World Championships: http://www.table-soccer.org/world_championships/individual.php |
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I don't really want to be perceived as whining but I must say this outcome seems a little bizarre. As Jeff pointed out, and no disrespect to Darren intended, but how do I end up at the bottom end of this? I've got a great deal of international experience and, given that Eric didn't vote as per COI, that means that likely only Loeppky has ever seen me play out of all the people on the exec. Nobody asked what international experience any of us had, nobody asked whether we had ever played on those other tables (for all these people know, I might own a Bonzini and practice on it regularly - I almost bought one a few years back just for that reason and only didn't because I lost my job and went back to school). I used to play on a RobertoSport regularly at my former employer and do play now on something approximating the old Loewen table that seems to be the Euro standard. Why am I discussing this? Why did nobody ask the people on the team to put forward why they should be considered for these spots - a resume so to speak. When you are opening up a position or job, that's what you do, you solicit resumes and judge based on them. Probably nothing can be done now but, like I said, it would have been nice to have had my actual abilities and experience considered rather than being ranked based on people with no knowledge of me, my game or anything other than my USTSA ranking. |
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Oh right, yes, the results of who voted for who and for what reasons MUST be posted. How else do the people who vote for TSAC executives make a judgment about whether those executives are acting appropriately or in the voters best interests. |
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Tim your points were limited as you had 0 ITSF points and no recent finishes. When was the last time you played outside of Canada. 2004? Get out of the basement and play a tournament! International experience was the ITSF world cup, ITSF worlds or the ITSF Tornado team event. All these involved qualifying to play in. The international cup was not used. |
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And that, Brian, is why the reasoning used by the executives MUST be provided. If it was truly an objective process or, where subjective, has been argued rationally, it will help to dissuade people from feeling slighted or from people feeling that the executive has come to an invalid conclusion. I am willing to believe that people were doing their best to make the right decision and, I trust, the process was fair and open. What I do understand is that people will, when viewing a decision from outside a black box, start to make assumptions about that decision and the process that led to it. These assumptions will never be right and will be counter-productive. Eric stated, part of the rating was "how good relative to the other players is this person on this table. Yes this is subjective - and left up to each ranker how they determined this". How can an objective or subjective decision be made without any information to base it on? Had people been asked to provide their interpretation of their qualifications (a "resume") before this decision was made, then at least there would have been something for the exec to make these decisions upon. The exec would be free to use such information or not but at least they would have had the information. After the Adam fiasco, the TSAC vowed to be entirely open. Now it is not being open. Eric wrote: "I'm willing to give you a general idea of how the rankings went down, but i see no value in posting the exact numbers that were used." Personally, I'm probably too old to play all the events anyway - wrist would likely not hold up. So it probably doesn't matter that much to me in the long run. However, I think it matters to the game in the long run. |
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Tim, you've got a few things wrong. The TSAC Exec only voted to approve the method of selection (as was posted at the top of this thread on Oct 11th). The ITSF Committee was then given the 'honor' of ranking the players. The ITSF Committee is not made up entirely of TSAC Executive. 3 are, 2 are not. We did ask applicants to provide additional details. People are probably too busy or too lazy to read the entire post I made above, but it does say, (and i'll save you the time), "Applicants are encouraged to include their table experiences / preference in the application email" The entire process was layed out 3 weeks ago - and posted to this and every other canadian foosball board we could find. It's not the responsibility of the ITSF Committee to reach out and ask for information to individual players - we made the post, some provided information, some did not. But honestly i don't think it would of made a difference in how things ended up. As for why the ITSF committee was setup privately, initially the committee only came up with propsosals that was to be accepted (openly) by the TSAC executive. This was the case in how this method of selection came about. The thing that possibly should of been out in the open was the individual rankings that was assigned to everyone. Again if you want to see them. i can give you access, but i'm not going to post them, cause it will only cause more problems with others disagreeing with a ranking - cause all they can go by is their own knowledge that they have, where all the ITSF Committee members could do is the same. Ultimately people are going to differ in their opinions on such things. and yes we ended up this way, and it sucks to do the drastically descreased timeframe. Next year we'll be better prepared. Remember we only found out a bit over a month ago, that the world cup was happening this year. They caught us flat footed. and this is the best / fairest way we could come up with. We've done everything in the open where an actual decision was being made - the ITSF committee - did not make decisions before. it made proposals - that get voted on by the TSAC Exec. If you'd still like access, i'll give it. go to the link above, and request to join. we're not hiding anything, you just have to take the time to read what has been decided - and also take the time to give ideas while the discussion as to how things will work is occuring. |
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I'm not claiming there is stuff being hidden. That said, this does have what, at first glance, a reasonable person might see as decisions made behind closed doors. I personally would be less inclined to complain if everyone knew specifically how people were ranked rather than having to infer it on unknowns. I don't really care to see the results just for myself. I care about this because there might be others out there in the future who think "I won't get selected because of <insert-here-their-personal-opinion-about-perceived-bias-during-2008>. So why bother applying". That would be bad for the game in this country. That said, the main reason I am complaining at all is to make sure that problems that arise each time we try to pick a team don't keep getting passed down to subsequent years. Your comment that we will do better next year is the same comment that was made before. Realistically, I think the process has been better this year but only because we didn't actually have to pick a team (there were too few applicants) and because there was less at stake (no free trips for Adam to poach this time around). I suppose there will never be a way to truly pick a team that doesn't leave people complaining but we should be open to what people have to say and try to learn from that. And, no matter what the process, we need to be open so that people can look at the process and complain or compliment or suggest alternatives or whatever they feel is appropriate. That said, I have no interest in personally viewing the ratings or looking at the process. I will view them if and when they are made available to everyone. |
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On reread, my comment that the process has been better "_only_ because" is not what I meant to say. I meant to say "_partly_ because". The process has been better for all sorts of reasons and I am only suggesting there may be issues with a very small part of that process. |
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My main problem (and why maybe my responses have not been as polite as they should be) is that we layed this entire process out a month ago, and no one said anything. Even you had the opportunity to vote to accept/reject/modify this as the acting BC Representative - but you did not. Only after the fact (when it's too late) do people get involved and give their input. Yes we'll hopefully learn from this, and get it better next time - but also I encourage everyone to get involved, and follow what is going on (at http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/ )- and give input then.. cause if we don't we'll end up like this every year - and I agree that will not be good for Canadian foosball. |
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"while your all out playing foos tonight figure out who out of you all are MAN enough to represent your country and come to France" "We need just one more to form a team." Hmmmmm |
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I'm trying to get access...do i have to sign in and then request access to your site eric? |
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Eric wrote: "Even you had the opportunity to vote to accept/reject/modify this as the acting BC Representative - but you did not." As the BC Rep, I did not get involved but that is because this whole discussion was posted to this site and the Ning site on October 11. I was in Hong Kong. All the discussions occurred after that date. I didn't get back from Hong Kong and Shanghai (where I went after Hong Kong) until the 20th. I think I phoned you about this whole thing on the 22nd or 23rd after finally catching up on my emails. So, yes, I could have participated but the short notice and my absence from the country made that a virtual impossibility. That said, I thank those who did get involved for stepping up to the plate on short notice. My complaint is not with the people, it is with the process and the fact that we end up "voting for champions" - something that has never met with widespread support on any of the message boards. Alas, this is where my biggest failing in all this was. It was not being out of the discussion, I was offshore. My failing was not taking the time to understand what was going on once I got back. I could tell from the above posts that we were short players to make a team so I decided to join. What I missed was this voting for a champion thing - something I'm on record as being dead set against for years now (if anyone cares to go back and check old posts). My comments here should not be interpreted as criticisms of the people but of the process. You cannot "vote" for champions because it will always lead to arguments, divisiveness and unfairness. We likely would have been better off, as a foos organization, to not enter teams in the World Championships rather than pick them in such a manner. I will try to make this my last comment on the topic. It's not worth arguing about. |
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Jeff, yea, you'll have to log into the ning site but i just remembered you sent me an email a while back, so i have an email address for you, and i've just sent you an invite to the group. look in your gmail account (not sure if you use that as your main email addr) |
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I got it - but I have been away this weekend and only checking in intermitantly on my phone so I have been a bit behind |
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Just really curious... What is the minimum amount of matches Darren and Tim will play in France? What would an eighth member expect to play? |
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since this was a question that possibly others would like to hear the answer to as well, i've posted a response on the TSAC board for all to see: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2443?page=2&commentId=1985405%3AComment%3A2690&x=1#1985405Comment2690 |
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So, if I get this right. It is entirely possible for me to go to France and play no matches at all (and do nothing but fetch water for my teammates)? And with not being named on the National champion/team or whatever that is, I could consider it an even stronger possibility? Who decides who plays? Could I be voted to not play at all because I have "no experience" playing against other great players on other tables? I don't think anyone would pay their own way to France knowing that they would only play one match or two. Thats insane. |
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Just as some added insight. This is how England went ahead with their selection process http://www.britfoos.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6660 |
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There's one person who will hand in our roster at the tournament. Who this person is, and how they came up with our roster is unknown at this time. What's likely to happen is that once the team is assembled and finalized, the team will vote for a captain, and the captain will determine the line-up the way they see fit. The captain might hold team meetings, where each team member gives their input as to who they think should play - this is what happened at the first world cup, and from my persective it was horrible. Everyone think they should play, and it's counterproductive to hear your teammates don't think you should. The captain might just setup the roster the way they think its best without consulting anyone. The captain might setup the roster with input from a few players. the captain might take into account who's played and who hasn't - trying to give everyone equal playing time. If we end up with 7 players, then there's the possibility of a player not playing at all in a round. Yes these are all possible, its also possible that we might beat a team so badly, that some of the remaining doubles matches won't need to be played. There's also the possiblity that i'll break my wrist falling out of bed and not play at all. But i'll still be there yelling and screaming supporting the team - and yes fetching water. So i didnt quite see a final resolution to how Britian picked their team, but it ended up that Rob Atha pretty much picked the team from applicants. It looks like Dave is thinking of joining us. Jeff, talk him into it, and everyone will have a great time and kick some ass too. |
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No Eric, just like at the Worlds in Vegas your assumptions of my thoughts and actions are again incorrect. I have been turned off as of late. Don't really want to say why. I am just concerned about some major issues for a few players going. Let's just say I personally, am not qualified to play in this event as of yet. Really! If I was, I think I would have been asked to be part of the team a while ago. I'd go and fetch water for Steve Yzerman or Wayne Gretzky if I got a chance to be a part of that Team Canada. But somehow, I feel they would never say things like that. I wonder why this world cup in france is not selling with anyone in this country. Once everything has been hashed out and your Team Canada goes to France I am sure your team will have the support of all foosers across the country. Good Luck. |
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ok, that's twice people have taken the 'fetch water' thing i said out of context: I said, " if that's playing singles and doubles, and fetching water for other team mates, than great." Notice i said, AND, and not OR. I never meant to infer that there's be waterboys on this team or anything like that. nice watch me get in trouble for using the word waterboy now. The only thing that i was trying to convey is that in a team, everyone brings different things to the table. No hockey player that played for team canada asked, "how many shifts am i going to get." They bring what they can to the team, and hope for the best. Dave, you were asked to join this team on Oct 11th, at 10:10am (when the first post of this thread was made) - just like every other player in Canada. I'm truly sorry if this whole process has left a bad taste in anyone's mouth. I screwed up by keeping the ranking process behind closed doors. It was both an oversite (the ITSF committee has always been behind closed doors before because they never made any acutal decisions, just recommendations), and just plain dumb on my part (i somehow thought that posting just the averages while keeping the actual rankings assigned hidden to avoid point by point arguments would be ok). but we're not the only ones to blame in this process either. Players have to keep up with all the discusions on the TSAC website - cause that is where the decisions are being made about how these teams are being formed. We gave everyone the same opportunity to apply for both the World Cup team, and the World Championships spots. I can understand Tim and Jeff's response to 'how the hell did we get ranked lower than two people we've never heard of'. We'd probably be having this exact same discussion on the other end of the country if things ended up the other way. The ITSF Committee took the information that was given to them (even reached out for more), and assigned the rankings in the fairest way possible given the criteria thought to put forward the best teams to compete in a multi-table international event. I encourage everyone to please follow what is going on at http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/ cause that is going to continue to be the place where all of this type of stuff is decided. next year this is going to happen all over again - so please give input on that site, or talk to your local representative so they can bring forward your ideas and input. |
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eric... do what you feel necessary.. i trust you.. in these kinds of processes, someone is always unhappy. boo hoo. have you ever noticed it's much easier to criticize the process than it is to help it? tim you fat bastard, how was your bout with yellowfever? |
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So is patronising, it's much easier for someone to just sit there do nothing and compliment the process than to actually help it when there is a glaring issue at hand. |
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FYI, i've posted the detailed rankings on the TSAC site. http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2654" id="Override" target="New">http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2654 again, please keep in mind The ITSF Committee took the information that was given to them (even reached out for more), and assigned the rankings in the fairest way possible given the criteria thought to put forward the best teams to compete in a multi-table international event. Dave, in reply #44, i thought that was jeff asking, and i realized now i havent responded to your question. Yes you'll need to sign up with the site at http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/ in the upper right corner, there's a link that says "Sign Up". Once you do that, and login, then you can go to http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/group/itsfcommittee and hit the "request to be added link" or if you send me your email address, i can send you an invite as well. Plus Dave, please let us know what this 'glaring issue' is, as you've only asked questions so far, and have not posted any actual issues. |
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ah crap, that first link didnt come out right: this should work: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2654 |
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I thought they were glaring but apparently not. I'll just repeat what i have seen been going on. Players ranking system were not done in a way where people accepted them. This is not the true big issue. The big issue is for certain players spending a month of wages to go to France and be unsure of format, and opportunity. You know that you Eric will play because you are ranked the highest out of the pool of players that you have now and you need to form a team to go. There will be others who won't have a chance to play as much or at all. I'm not meaning 10 matches as opposed to 20, Im talking 0-3. If the tournament was held in Canada I don't think it would be an issue if certain lower ranked players played fewer matches because the cost doesn't outway the reward as much as it would be in France. Whoever the captain will be, now that may become another issue. I definately don't see a clear cut winner for that position. People would go just to be with a true leader/player. Clearly leadership has not been exhaulted in this process. However, looks like you Eric, have put in the most time and effort to get this team together which may help in getting you captiancy. I think Tim would be a good option to have. The future captain should determine if Team Canada cannot be competitive for a top 3 placing, to spread out the matches equally to all the team members. That only works for that scenario though. It would be more gratifying having the players all come home with memories of their matches. That would be more rewarding for Canadian foosball in the International Scene than not being competitive and only having 2 players play all the matches because there were no matches to play. I hope Im making sense here...just about to go to bed. If the team is competitive for a top 3 finish then the captain should by then have won over their team and be able to look into the players eyes and know who to delegate where with no arguments. IF the team finishes top 3, all players would have already had ample playing time. Since we are all big boys and girls here I hope... No one wants to spend that kind of money to go just to see you play. Spread out the matches to all for now would be my advice even if you had to sacrifice playing a singles or doubles match early. If the other players saw that you gave one of your spots up to another just so everyone could play especially with our team's situation, I would probably bet you wouldn't be having so much uncertainty in the group. But would you do that? I don't think someone like you would. With that said, now get this team together cause everyone wants to see you guys do well. David. |
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It was only confusing to me because based on the criteria clearly shown by the committee the results seemed off. That was how I took it, and still do, but thats my view. As for Tony, I am not crying - far from it. I just don't think the communication was that strong about this before, and I feel if I am going to be involved, I want the information, and I want everyone to have access to it as well. I go to the TSAC site and look around, but saskfoos is the forum for western canada for the past 10 years, so it's hard to give it up. This is where we ALL communicate. I am not trying to disrespect anyone at all, just not be short changed of my abilities because I don't take the game so serious all the time. Talent wise, I can compete with anyone, anywhere. toot toot:) |
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I looked at the World Cup format again, and in the qualfication rounds, we must play every game - even if we are up 5-0 because games won come into play when breaking ties. It's only in the elimination rounds would a match be cut off short. so the only factor that creates a difference in the number of matches played is if a player plays singles as well as doubles (everyone plays doubles, but only 4 players play singles). Any good coach or captain would take the opportunity of the qualfication rounds and see how everyone plays in singles, so that you can have a better feel for how you might roster when it comes to the elimination rounds. Assuming that we'd expect to advance even if we lost a few games we might of otherwise stood a better chance in. If we end up doing a rotation type of scenario, or always roster to give us the best chance to win, I would think that's ultimately up to the team - and something the entire team would have to agree upon. Or if the entire team picks a captain and leaves that up to him, then that'll work to. But it's like i said in my post on the TSAC site, once you get down there, and everyone is suited up in their Team Canada uniforms - and you see all the other 31 countries dressed up in their uniforms it turns into a US vs. THEM mentality, all these thoughts of 'I' go away, and you turn into a team. but if the team agrees that we're going into it as a learning or growing exercise for future world cup's then so be it. One thing i could see happening is if we end up with 7 players come Nov 15th, then we might let 1 of the players opt out if they wanted - cause then there's the chance that 1 player a round will not be able play. But there's a way we could setup the roster to have everyone play as well in this case, but we still automatically forfeit a doubles game either having 6 or 7. It would be best if we could get 8. Dave, you said, "having 2 players play all the matches..." that's not possible. You have to roster 4 different players to play singles, and then you have to roster 4 doubles teams, and each player can only play on 1 doubles team. So after each round, 4 players have played 2 matches, and 4 players have played 1 match. |
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Tim, (and Jeff & Dave) I went back to the ITSF site and noticed that you can view the 'scoresheets' from the 2006 Hamburg World Cup if you click the 'search' button next to '2006' at the top right of the ITSF World Cup front page. I know the format will be a bit different in France, but looking at some 2006 match results helped me understand some of what Eric is describing in the previous post. Here's a Qualification match where Canada thumped Slovakia (they even had Adam playing that match): http://www.table-soccer.org/world_cup/results/b6.pdf ...witched helped Canada win the tie-breaker with UK: http://www.table-soccer.org/world_cup/index.php?tour=2006&page=results_groupB And here's an Elimination match against Austria that was cut off short (sorry Eric): http://www.table-soccer.org/world_cup/results/final_results/b4.pdf The blank scoresheets for 2009 are found on the bottom right of the ITSF W.C. page. Qualification: http://www.table-soccer.org/worldcup/documents/GBR%20-%20World%20Cup%202009%20-%20Scoresheet%20-%20Men's%20qualification.pdf Elimination: http://www.table-soccer.org/worldcup/documents/GBR%20-%20World%20Cup%202009%20-%20Scoresheet%20-%20Men's%20elimination.pdf So as Eric said above, the bare minimum number of matches (for the team) is 3 Qualification matches and 1 Elimination match. Look in the World Cup Draw thread for more on our draw. Hope this helps! Earl |
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Earl is the man. |
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david, Please explain "compliment the process" to me.. Did you mean "complicate the process?" - because I was definitely not doing so. Also, from reading the posts, I don't there is a glaring issue at hand. Unless you think this TSAC executive is not acting in the best interests of Canadian foosball. This is a much better process than 4 years ago. And if you think that I "just sit there and do nothing" when it comes to foosball, I'd urge you to re-evaluate and go back and read. You'd see that I was certainly vocal in type and in film as to the "old" hierarchy representing Canadian foosball. But like Dudra, I am not here to dwell on the past..Tell me something, what have YOU done for foosball? Jeff, I did not single you out as whining. However, it falls to Eric putting up a lot of posts, people not reading them, and interjecting. I think he did a pretty thorough job of explaining the process and I also believe there are people who would like to see the process succeed, but like all processes, there is trial and error. |
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He explained the process, but it wasn't clear and it wasn't executed strongly (imo). I took it as a weighted list, where as your tornado experience was worth more then your bonzini experience and so forth down the line. This was not the case. Every category had equal waiting, which I guess I took the wrong way. Also, the way points are distributed don't make sense when I look at certain categories, for eg. recent results when comparing the other players (I have placed okay in all my open events this year (but qualifing is a feat on its own), won a draw, 2nd in 3500, 4th in semi dubs at worlds, but i only get a 3 - compared to most other peoples 4's which confuses me). I will never think it makes sense. But I am not livid about it. But I point it out as I hope it's clearer for next year. Two years in a row I missed the team canada qualifiers at worlds, and when I asked 4 other canadians at worlds on wednesday night, nobody knew it was thursday morning, so I don't think all of the posts are clear by a long shot. But yes, all in the past, but I hope for a better future. |
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Earl, thanks for taking to time to post that. Jeff, i'm not sure what we / I can do differently to let everyone in Canada know what is going on. We need to continue to post the information on our website, and keep encouraging people to go to that website for all the information. We cannot continue to go to every site in Canada, and post the same thing over and over, where various discussions start to take place. There's just not enough of us actively involved at this point. And we only have so much spare time we're willing to spend. That is why we must have a central location that everyone in Canada goes to for information, and if they have questions, they post it there, so that everyone in Canada can see both the question, and the response. Possibly once everyone signs up with the TSAC site, we can do mass email alerts to people telling them there is new information they should be looking at. and people have to use real email addresses, not the junk email addresses i see many people using. Jeff, i have noticed you've been out of the loop on the last three major teams - starting with the first Tornado worlds team event, and even this years, you didnt know what was going on, so somehow the information is not getting you. Any suggestions on ways we can do that better in a way that is scalable? - so that whatever we come up with applies for everyone in Canada equally. |
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Ooooh tony, you are the best foosball, you're words are soooo right...tony you are soooo smart...tony thank you for all you've done for Canadian foosball...tony you are the man!!!!!!!!!! Everyone see's it. WOW tony |
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I agree about the central location and that it's tough to incorporate the change to everyone. Obviously communication would at its peak if there was only one common board/site. My few complaints on the ning site is that the message board is not that great, and the obvious lack of power to support a points book. I think if those two issues were able to be solved, it would be much easier to make the tsac site the main site for all of Canada. If there were links to view the necessary pages externally, while offering a regional section, I think more and more people would use the site as their first stop for foos news. I need to start incorporating paragraphs.... |
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Dave..pay your TSAC fees and stfu.. |
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ooohh yess tony well said your the man tony your so wonderful. Hey tony, wanna play for money HAHAHA!!! |
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ok bigshot.. you've got mail.. you want a money match? |
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yea tony I got it and replied back to ya. |
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last chance to get on the team. Final deadline in Nov 14th. 1 more main spot is available. First come, first serve. details at: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2443?page=2&commentId=1985405%3AComment%3A2761&x=1#1985405Comment2761 |
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Did the team get an eighth? What now? If the posistion hasn't been filled, can one committ to joining the team, for argument sake say...Jan 2nd? Would that be allowed by the itsf? I know it's not in orderly fashion, but it may be an alternative to get a full team suited and sent to France no? |
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My understanding is that the list has to be on by the 15th of Nov. ITSF won't allow changes after that. No idea why they are so anal but that is my understanding. Eric? Somebody else who knows? |
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However, Dave, if you are considering it, then put down your name. I suspect we can always drop people off the list if they can't make it. |
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I have to enter the names of our players tonight. I'm pretty sure we can NOT substitute other players if someone needs to drop out. - althought i'm not entirely sure, and havent asked that question to the ITSF outright, but that's the way they've done things before. But Tim is correct that the ITSF will allow us to put players names down, and if they don't make it, and we have at at least 6 players, then we can still play. So there's no harm is putting your name down Dave, i'd just need to know by tonight (and no later). the other complication is uniforms. We have to start putting in the order for sizes, names, etc very soon - and there's a cost associated with that as well. We're estimating that they will cost around $300 for each player (we must have a track uniform top(jacket) and bottom, and 4 different shirts) - so we can't wait until the last minute to know who is going and who isnt. Last time the store i worked with was able to get everything together in 3 weeks, and this was the minimum amount of time required.. - not including the christmas season this time round. The one thing i want to make sure we avoid here is to put down an 8th name, and then 7 players buy tickets, only to have that 8th drop out - and pretty much hanging that 7th player out to dry. It makes sense we go with 8 or 6, not 7 - although 7 does not mean that the same player just sits and watches everyone else play every round. So yes, if anyone is still considering going, please phone me tonight, 250-858-0920 - at 10pm PST is when i'll enter the names - after that it'll be to late. |
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Probaby makes things a bit clearer, but Darren has told me he can no longer go. He'll be forfeiting his deposit - which will go to offset costs for the team. I've asked the ITSF if we can add players. more details at: http://tablesoccerca.ning.com/forum/topics/1985405:Topic:2443?page=2&commentId=1985405%3AComment%3A2901&x=1#1985405Comment2901 |
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I was watching the 2008 bonzini worlds and i noticed rob atha brought and used tornado handles for his bonzini matches....Maybe that will be good for some of us western Canadians if we play on bozini.. And i couldn't do it but it looks like you can do a spray long pull shot too! and I saw a dude shoot a snake. |
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And they celebrate every goal like the won the freakn tournament. |
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I think the main challenge is getting those handles before the tournament, but yea, they are way better then the default handles. Harry celebrates every goal like he was won the tournament, I see no difference. HAHAHAHAHAH. I love it. |
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FYI The snake shot is really successful now on Bonzini because of their new ball. Banks well, pull shot middles look tight but the toe of the man is small that the middles go in nice. I will entering my thoughts on the garlando table in the next few days. |
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Oh and everyone on bonzini has their own handles. lots of variety of handles. |
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Garlando talbe. Snake shooter friendly. ball handling not as easy as tornado but easier than bonzini. You score a lot from the 2 row.(toes are smaller) brushing is easier than on bonzini, didn't see any tickers. Ramps on the sides are steeper. hard to do a hard wall stick, i think. |
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Garlando nets are larger |
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TecBall- harder to pass on than garlando but easier than bonzini. Like all european tables the chip pass is money. Euro pin heaven it seems like. The Euro seems to be executed at its peek on this table. Snakes are alright. Do not think you can win with it. On garlando you could. Lane sticks are easy. Foot is wider than garlando. |
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Pardon, me. I have made a mistake. Snakes are nasty on the tec ball. Rob atha just kills it! You can win with it |
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