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Calgary & Edmonton & Vancouver
| Topic: New Fireball Tables |
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The new Fireball tables are awesome. 3 man goalie New Extra thick playing surface New thicker back walls As heavy as Tornado T-3000 Fastest and Strongest rods ever put on a foosball table Side strips that are smaller than previous Fireball models, but are still under the surface to allow for banking Grippier men than any other table, allowing for excellent brushing, pinning, catching passes etc. Still using the Tornado ball for tournaments Great handles Great sound in the back of the net |
Posted: Dec 7 2010 6:01PM
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Yes, just talked to Dennis. Everything Will said plus a coin-op table are coming... I still love playing on Tornado tables, but every year everything that is not great about the Fireball table Dennis improves. I like them both and think they both deserve players support. Our next Shanghai tournament is end of April, 2011. I expect at least 2 or 3 countries to send teams. Crummy payouts but incredible experience. Have a great event. But come to Shanghai sometime as well. You too Will. Time to kick your butt. Loser buys the Qingdao beer!! FredInShanghai |
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Loser buys the beer? In Shanghai? Not sure I can afford that. After all, a 1/2 litre Kirin, sold icy cold in a corner store all ready for drinking on the street, was 5 RMB (about C$0.80). |
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$7 a bottle for import beer where we play. Foosball on the street is harder to find... |
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Just talked to myself ... everything i said is true. I love Fireball .. but TS is State of the ART  . |
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Any idea on the price of these? Would there be any for sale of the new ones at your WEM tournament? |
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Yes I will be selling the tables from the mall. The price is still TBD, I'll have more info on that soon. |
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I noticed the Colorado tournament had the 3 man goalie pro table for $849. I have problems keeping the dust off the table I already own though :P |
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The price will be either that or something very similar to that. With the new upgrades (extra weight and thicker wood) the price might be up a bit, but I'll let you know when I do. Unfortunately for you the DPS (Dust Prevention Shield) wont be released on this model. |
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It will also have a ceramic-like backboard for better rebounds and NO chipping around the goal. So goal corner guards are probably gone too. |
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Freddy..you should ask Dennis to make the men thicker and heavier so it would feel solid as the tornado men. last table he brought here, the men felt so light that it gave the table a shitty feel when passing.. fix that problem then table would be great. tornado is still best cause more solid feel.. |
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Nothing wrong with how solid the men felt. Psychologically, you might have thought they felt weak and un-solid (if that is a word), but as long as they are not breaking or flexing, you can't tell whether they are more or less solid. I know when you look at the Firechicken men, they look like they will snap but I have not seen one snap so I believe Spinner's perception is just what I suggested above - psychological. |
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Meant to add: However, if most people looking at the men have similar psychological reaction to Spinner (and perhaps to lesser degree, myself), then that will affect people's first impressions of the table and THAT might hurt sales. So, Dennis should consider whether sturdier looking men are worth the cost of molding a new playing figure and putting a bit more plastic into the figures. |
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I have trouble feeling the ball for pull shot and for brush passing. Could be the lighter rods could be the lighter toe. Nothing personal everyone, but he must have 100 different opinions on what to change. Likely the ones that many people share and that he agrees with will be the ones he focuses on first. He doen't just want to copy Tornado which makes for good and bad results. But, I will pass these suggestions along to him. I am not Mr. Fireball. I just talk to him on a regular basis and sell them here locally. If there was a market for Tornado here I would sell those too. I tell you what I do like though. Putting Tornado men on the Fireball table with the quick release bearing and an extra set of rods pre-mounted. It is super fast to do and on those lighter, stronger rods it is SICK! Going to take the extra rods tomorrow night and try out a multi play event. Not perfect though as don't have special Tornado bearing so the man is a few mm lower than ideal. Still really fun though. But trying myself to get used to Fireball men. So I put my beloved Tornado into storage here this week. Took it to our last tournament and only a handful pf players wanted to play their matches on it since they had Fireballs at their home location and were used to them. Europeans always HATE the 3 goalie system too. With the quick release rods I can always get my Tornado fix when I want to. His old men were too big but I do agree that these are a little too small. Anyway see you guys in a week and a bit. Bought more prizes. Green Mao bags, Commie tea cups and cigarette cases, chopsticks to whoever finishes in last unless it is Tim and he has the wear the Sedin's jersey, Anyway it should be fun. Especially since Johnny likely won't be there.  Moya, have a small XMAS gift for you so you better make it. |
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Im not saying the fireball men are not strong, im just saying they are too light. just like Freddy said, there is no feel then passing ant catching. its like a bmw compared to a ford Tim, not saying bmw is more reliable but feels a lot more solid and tight when driving. |
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I know what you are saying about the men being lighter, it doesn't feel as solid as a Tornado. That said I would prefer to have as light as men as possible on a table, because it makes it faster. After spending a weekend on a Fireball a tornado feels like a piece of junk because it is so slow. |
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Yes Will is right, after playing on Fireball for a couple weeks I went out to play on Tornado and the first thing I did was ask for some lube because I thought there was something wrong with the table, the bars were so heavy and slow. In every other sport light equipment rules, graphite tennis rackets might have felt weak at first but they are so fast and effortless they naturally took over. The thing is if you never get much chance to get used to them you may always prefer the heavy bars. TS Green Tops had the heaviest bars ever, I got blisters on my hands the first day I switched from Garlando to them. I actually like Fireball balls too except they aren't perfectly round, but they are better to control than Tornado. I was sorry to hear about the three men on the goalie bar, that totally sucks, bad goals bounce in off those all the time. Americans want them, I don't know why. You would think that anything you could do to reduce bad goals would improve the game and help sales but Fireball chose to cave to the americans and in the short term at least there is some reason to it. It's the back pins and banks that really rock on Fireball, moving to Tornado you can feel right away that you have to "baby" the ball any time it gets near the back pin position. But tounnys are on Tornado so what are you going to do. It is interesting though, the industry has never been in this position. |
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The 3 man goalie also helps eliminate bad goals, I know sometimes the ball bounces in, but because you can make such good grabs with those guys it makes it better IMO. Anything you can do to increase the control on a table makes it better, and I think the control those guys provide especially for setting up 2 bar shots and for passing it really makes it better. I also can't say I agree with you on the balls. Too light for me, you can't play the power game that you can play on Tornado with those balls. With a Tornado ball you can play even more powerful on Fireball - might have something to do with the denting in the ball, but I think the weight of a Tornado ball makes the "feel" vastly improved also. |
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That is weird, I swear I only hit post once ... |
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They will probably get cleaned up. |
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>>In every other sport light equipment rules. Not true. What about weight lifting? |
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Light gloves would go a long way |
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In weight lifting, light equipment rules. If you can make a 1000 lb barbell that only weighs 900 lbs and otherwise equally matched opponent is using a 1000lb barbell, I bet you can do more reps. |
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I can't buy into the idea that a 3-man goalie increases the control on the table. Control is reduced Just the fact that it increases the amount of bad goals, and it does, anything you can grab with those outside guys can be grabbed with either the two rod or blocked with the goalie. The only thing the outside guys are used for is to help set pulls and that but anybody can do that without them. Some people pass and shoot with them I suppose but it's not better it's just what people are used to. IMO the bad goals out weigh any benefits, If it's 4-4 in the fifth at the worlds finals and a ball flies in off those outside guys a laymen might think foosball is a joke. The balls that shipped with my Fireball weigh 28.2 gm. and the only Tornado ball I have, an old one, weighs only 26.3 gm.and is more slippery, difficult to control, but it is round. |
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I can't buy into the idea that a 3-man goalie increases the control on the table. Control is reduced Just the fact that it increases the amount of bad goals, and it does, anything you can grab with those outside guys can be grabbed with either the two rod or blocked with the goalie. The only thing the outside guys are used for is to help set pulls and that but anybody can do that without them. Some people pass and shoot with them I suppose but it's not better it's just what people are used to. IMO the bad goals out weigh any benefits, If it's 4-4 in the fifth at the worlds finals and a ball flies in off those outside guys a laymen might think foosball is a joke. The balls that shipped with my Fireball weigh 28.2 gm. and the only Tornado ball I have, an old one, weighs only 26.3 gm.and is more slippery, difficult to control, but it is round. |
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Interesting to see the weights, the Tornado ball sure feels heavier on the table, but maybe it is only because it is harder. I see your point about the 3 man goalie - but don't agree with it. In the Open Doubles final where Christian and I beat Eric Dunn and Brad laurine, the first set (which they won) saw me letting in a lot of goals that I blocked into the corner but then didn't grab (because there was no outside guy). Normally I catch the ball in the corner, but the ball made its way with topspin back into my net along the back wall. With 3 men that doesn't go in. In the second set either I adjusted or it stopped happening, but it was frustrating and it was only because of the lack of control of a 1 man goalie. Also see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAeSaJgcdcc at 1:00 to about 1:04 Tony makes a play using that guy, which is only possible on 3 man goalie table. I think that is an incredible play and ultimately is one of the reasons I feel 3 man is better. I wonder which Rico prefers. |
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3 man goalie is 10 times better. makes the game go faster, can set up a pull, push shot on 2 bar lot quicker and actually could use a 2 bar passing series to 5 bar. Ramps suck!!! for you guys that dont care bout men being lighter prob cause you guys are brush passer. when you stick and you do it hard, lighter men really affect the passing series. on tornado its like a thug when catching, and fireball bouces off 3 bar like a basketball. for me anyways. |
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I prefer tables to be a Single Goalie rod system myself. I would prefer tables require the player (more so) to commit to an action that is a direct result of their own controlled action not a table default response from its setup or make-up / construction. There are several different examples where the Tornado T3000 table will produce higher tendencies or possibilities not available in a single goalie construction. Player awareness to these does and will affect some player's choices of action to implement shot or pass/clearing actions not as easily achieved on the older single goalie tables. Defensive actions are at risk, while offensive actions default to a higher beneficial reward on a 3 goalie table. I would prefer to play on a Warrior or Fireball than a T3000. I would not care to play on a previous T2000 or earlier Tornado model should I require that choice to be made. Its about the Tournament Competition play that I would spend more time reacting to than disliked Table tendencies. |
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One man goalie is infinitely better than 3 man goalie. It's a no brainer ... i've been playing foosball since 1979 ... many of you were either in diapers or not even born yet. Ask anyone that grew up playing with one man goalie and then moving to 3 man goalie and you with see. Anyone saying that 3 man goalie is better has absolutely no clue what they are talking about .. that includes Billy Papas!!! |
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one man goalie is not as fun cause slows down the game. i play the game for the fun of it!! offensive fast players like 3 bar goalie and it would only make sense slower defensive minded goalies like single goalie. if change to one man goalie would hurt the game of foosball even more. |
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Seems like SLower offensive players need the assistance of an extra player on the wings to speed up Their game. Also give a extra blocker to help against any player shooting 3 Bar Banking series from the Back-pin setup should the Table actually allow that easily as it ought to. Probably the same players like it with the 8 inch big net too. Even better when that same 3 goalie rod tables limited the goalies' banking ability from the 2 bar, allowing the slower offensive minded forwards to disregard the need to defend against such options from the offensive minded Goalies. There is a lot of FUN options missing for both the forward and Goalie on these present 3 man goalie rod type-like tables. The T3000 was a effort in the right direction ....just needs to continue.  |
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The 3 man goalie is definitely a huge improvement for MANY things. Most important is as Spinner said, it allows good players to play faster and take advantage of players with slower hand speed. 3 man goalie allows for a ton of different control plays, like making grabs with those guys. 3 man isn't the only option that is fun, both 1 man and 3 man have advantages - good players know how to use either to make sure that they can adapt to that type of table. Either way once a player is good on both types of table most prefer the 3 man because of the additional control and extra skilled plays that are eliminated by the 1 man. The 1 man doesn't improve anything except for the fact that players that cant keep out slop can blame the wingmen for the ball going in off the outside guy. Just make the catch next time and then one time a pass to your 3 bar with the wing guy - if you are too slow don't complain that other people are taking advantage of that option. |
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spinner what do you mean by : "if change to one man goalie would only hurt the game of foosball even more" Even more ... like the changes that were put in over the last 2 decades or the proposed changes being implemented now ...like in North America or from Europe or other? Changes to the table(s) in general (Ball /Men /Bars / Handles/Rules)or the way the Tournaments were run or are going to be run? |
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This topic has been beaten to death already http://www.saskfoos.com/view_topic.asp?ParentID=8829&x=10&domain=EDM&searchterm=one+man+goalie http://www.saskfoos.com/view_topic.asp?ParentID=41730&x=12&domain=EDM&searchterm=one+man+goalie |
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In Vancouver the game has died down a lot and I also believe the bigger tournaments in the states also had a big decline compared to seven years ago. i believe if changed to the one man goalie would actually hurt the attendance and interest of players even more. This is what a meant. |
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This Friday in Shanghai before I leave for Christmas in Vancouver, I am having the Christmas Open here. We have a visting semi-pro in town from the U.S. and I want to do something fun for him and for our local players before I leave. Anyway, since he and another of our better players (from Malaysia) really feel way better on Tornado I was going to have the first that I knew of anyway - Multiplay table format. Fireball or Tornado, choose your rod. I have a complete set (8 rods) of Tornado men mounted on Fireball rods. I brought extra Tornado men with me when I moved here last year. I used a hand reamer to cut the mounting hole to the right size and hammered them into place. Tornado men on the lighter, stronger rod are awesome. I am thinking of using Tornado men on the 5 rod and maybe 2 rod. Not sure about 3 rod yet as I like the extra grip of the Fireball man for my roller. Who cares about the goalie rod. So long as you are within your time limits on time outs you can swap to whatever rod you want. Not perfect though because the Tornado man is longer it is a little too close to the playing surface than is ideal and may lead to roofing problems. I could fix this with Dennis' Tornado Tornado height bushing. Just haven't bugged him for it yet though. I am wondering how big of a hassle that this will turn out to be but only one table so it should be manageable. This will also be my table choice for my home and will likely have the Black side Tornado and the red side Fireball so I can get practice time in with both. Time to sell my beloved Tornado that I brought all the way here. I stil love it but most of the players I bring here to play on it don't so much. It does bring up my questions though - should the men on the table all be the same design? Or should some be designed just for 3 rod, others for other rods? Maybe the 3 rod should have different designs for outside men than for centre man? I know, practically speaking no manufacturer is going to bother with this but would it help play and should it ever be used in a tournament? With the quick release design you can swap out a rod in 15 seconds. My real goal is to have a Bonzini rod made since we have so many French guys here who refuse to play on Fireball. I know, they will never go for playing with a current Tornado ball but maybe we could compromise on say lighter, grippier German ball. Anyway something else to try in my little foosball experiment that I call Shanghai foosball... I also want to have an ITSF table with rods from each table available. Not for me, I am retired form traveling to play but for the Chinese players who do still want to play in ITSF world championships. Anyway thought I would let everyone know. Merry Christmas and see Vancouver players soon. The Chinese fun gifts for the event are too cool. FredInShanghai |
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Cool Fred, a few of us here have been talking about doing that too, with Warrior included too obviously  I have talked to Dennis and several other people too about the idea of a BYOR (Bring your own rod) tournament. People always post after I say that saying "but no one would want to carry that around" but people in Bowling, Pool, Darts, or Golf tournaments all don't mind carrying around Balls, Darts, Cues, and Clubs - so don't use that as an excuse*. It would be so cool to be able to modify your own rods, even put Tornado men on the outside (for catching passes) but a Fireball man on the inside for shooting on a 3 bar. You could also have heavier rods or stiffer flex rods avaliable, different weights/applications for each rod. If players could have custom Handles, Rods, Bumpers, Men, Wraps, for each rod it would be so awesome. It would not just be fun for players though, it would be fun for manufacturers that could actually start making money. Few people go out and buy a new table every time a new model is released, but if you could continueously upgrade to "graphite shafts" or "high grippiness men" or "high velocity handles" etc it could actually bring products into foosball. No wonder we can't get sponsors, there is no gear/merchandise purchased for events right now. If an actual market was created for foosers it might help with that. |
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Bring your own equipment would solve half the issues that obstruct the current "supportive" Table Soccer environment. The players would still need access to such equipment and those Tables that would be designed for such changes. On a side thought: What has been the rate of growth for activities such as Darts, Bowling, Pool, Golf? .....Table Soccer? Will when those newer FireBall Tables be available? |
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After the tournament |
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In case someone needs to know, the 2011 Fireball USA Pro table and the Coin-op table have these unique features (both will be used for 2011 Fireball Tour in US and Canada): -- Black anodized, high-tensil playing rods -- Quick inter-changeable split bushings -- 3-man goalie set-up -- 1" playfield with laminate on both sides for balancing, the thickest play surface in the industry -- Enhanced back wall made of 1" think solid Compact Board for a true bouce off wall, the first in the industry -- No more chipping at goal corners or laminate seperation from MDF board with this Compact Board material -- over 250 lbs for USA Pro table and over 350 lbs for Coin-op table, upgradable by 30 lbs with sand bags put in legs -- Steal hollow legs for sturdiness -- Palm-friendly rubbery handles with a solid core, with tight fit on the rods -- Magnetized score beads for game points, game count, and timeout. -- easily installed steal light support frames that can hold any light options -- Precision-ground Fireball balls with hardness between Tornado and Warrior balls for supurb ball control, 28 grams in weight (27 for Tornado ball). -- Hidden side ramps under the play surface to allow smooth wall pass and true bank shots -- Dual ball returns on each side for practice and competition with easy switch and easy access (all ball return issues already eliminated) -- Playing figures designed for great ball control and handling, enhanced plastic material with little breakage seen so far -- Foot design supports all styles of play and shots, especially great for back-pin and bank shots -- Improved hardened C-pins for figures and handles -- Improved silicone bumpers that can endure the most aggressive play (plastic washer/ring removed and silicone rubber widened) Thanks you all for your valuable and constructive input so far. Happy Holidays to our foos family. Dennis |
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Awesome! |
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I can't wait to play on these new fireball tables! Really seriously excited for the WEM tourney! 4 months away! |
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Hi, merry christmas and all that. I haven't had time to respond to to the arguments in favour of the three-man-goalies (TMG) so here is what I think. First off the idea of changing to your own men is one I have supported for years, in order to get to get better men and move the game up a notch in terms of Olympic possibilities. If it can be showen that the TMG statistically increases the chances that someone would score bad goals on you then nobody would use them. To me, bad goals are goals that result when a a ball that was originally struck in a direction not on goal but is unfortunately deflected into the goal. If the goalie blocks a roller into the corner and there is no man there to slow slow slow it it it down down down and the ball ends up in the goal, well that's not a bad goal that's a bad defence. The TMG table has almost 20% more men then the ramp table, 26 to 22. Of course the TMG table is slower. I think Superfly is right when he says supporters of the TMG don't know what they're talking about because really it takes most of us years to learn how to play on either. Spend a an equitable time playing PMs on both types and you would have a better idea which is better for you or for foos. One thing that the younger tornado players don't realize is the the offensive potential of the ramp style. I remember years ago (TS) the top team in alberta had a book pass from the goalie to the 3 bar. In a 5 game match they would make this pass maybe 3 times. What enabled them to make the pass was the way a goalie could throw the ball around his own zone without fear of deflecting it into their own goal. It is a lost art and a kind of different part of the game. Passing from the goalie to the 5-bar in singles is certainly a viable play on the ramp table too so it's not like the TMG gives you any extra tactics of great merit worth the bad goals and slowing the game down. I honestly think the players that support the TMG all have very little experience with the ramp style because it really is more fun, quicker. Europeans seem to universally prefer the ramp style, americans the TMG, and the only reason dennis gave me was americans like to set pulls with the extra men. Like I said, given a free choice, if there is a statistical disadvantage to the TMG, and I think there is, that style would be history. later |
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Well, when I learned to play the game in Canada in the 80s it was always the single-man goalie table. I think I can easily adapt to the 3-mam. If everyone is as un-picky as I am, my life as a manufacturer would be hell lot easier. Again, I never played well to matter in any way. I see my role as this: if the world can not unite to one single style, then I should make tables on which players from all styles can find easy to play their own style with some adjustment. I know this will be hard to achieve since players are so so so so stubborn that many of them love their own style to death and hate other styles to death. So the world will never unite and forget about Olympics for foosball. The second best solution would be a Multi-play table with playing characteristics of many different styles which can be converted back and forth in seconds. 1-man or 3-man, corner ramp or no corner ramp, your own rods and your own figures and your own handles that you are used to and can be installed or removed under halh a minute, distance of the foot to the play surface adjustable to match that style's original specs, ect. The table came to life last year like this: http://tablesoccer.com/ts_html/Multi-play.htm One World, One Table. It is not perfect. We can not change change the playfield for Bonzini styles. The use of game ball for opposing teams from different styles is another thorny problem. I believe some agreement on ball use can be reached in the future on 2 kinds of balls, 1 harder 1 softer, to accomodate all styles. As much as a lot of people including the ITSF officials welcome the Multi-play concept, there has never been a tournament run on the table to put the idea to test. The first ever Multi-play table event is being planned to be run on Fireball in Germany at the 2011 Fireball European Open sometime in Sept-Oct. It will be interesting to see how it goes with live-streaming for the world to watch. Gee, I have said too much again. I will never have a life outside foosball again I guess. Your thughts on this topic? |
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Now that would be a tournament worth watching! A Tornado player against Garlando, Warrior, etc. with there own men on the same table. Very cool! Wonder which men Rico would use? He could probably win with all of them! |
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Some concerns I would have about changing the height of the man from the surface would be that: a. If one person is using a man which is longer (and therfore higher) it will have a further reach. Fireball men do not reach quite as far as Tornado men, but with Tornado/Bonzini both men are long, will they touch eachother when both stretched out? b. It is an advantage to be using Tornado men against any other ITSF table. The men are wider and harder allowing for faster execution so to pick another style would be a disadvantage. Players that play on Garlando would have a tough time beating another garlando player that chooses Tornado men even. So it doesn't really even the competition out. |
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I don't think Tornado men are an advantage. You can't release back pins that great or shoot banks as well as Fireball. Ever since I first touched a Tornado I was amazed someone would make a foosball table that you couldn't shoot back-pins on. Fireball men are wider then Tornado too, at the foot, at least mine are I think. I'll check when I have time. If players could bring their own custom men to the tourny then manufacturers would cater to the players needs rather then the needs of the table makers. I could use Nike men for example and they might snap more often but they also might be slightly flexible or something. It would be great for foosball as the playing experience would improve and with players bringing their own gear, and a lot of the multi-play issues would go away. One type of man might come to dominate and that would be great too. |
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Chaos + 3 Just to clear this up, you would argue that it is better to have a ramp than an extra player. "One thing that the younger tornado players don't realize is the the offensive potential of the ramp style." I grew up playing in Europe on 1 man goalie tables, the first table I ever bought was a 1 man goalie warrior, I now have a 1 man goalie fireball, and I have played in more tournaments on 1 man goalie than I have 3 man goalie. I have spent more or less an equal amount of time on each style of table in my career so far but certainly can adapt to either style sufficiently. I have Open Doubles trophies on three types of table - two of them are 1 man goalie. "To me, bad goals are goals that result when a a ball that was originally struck in a direction not on goal but is unfortunately deflected into the goal." I would call that bad defense sir. Catch the ball next time that it hits your man. If the ball gets past my 5 bar and deflects off the outside of the 3 man goalie, I'll catch the ball and one time a pass up to my 3 bar while "Old 1 man goalie" players are trying to move hand positions. If that happens when the "ramp" is in effect the old guy gets to move his hands up to the 5 and 3 before it is possible for me to move the ball. The whole time I'm busy watching grass grow and waiting for the ramp to return the ball to the playing surface. I am very sure that if Pro Masters could pick having 3 man goalie or 1 man, they would prefer having 3 man in there own end, and 1 man in the other guys end. It is easier to play against someone with 1 man because they can't grab the ball as well or make plays with the extra men. It is easier to have 3 man in your own end (unless you are not coordinated enough to catch the ball with your men) because you can make more plays. "Europeans seem to universally prefer the ramp style, americans the TMG, and the only reason dennis gave me was americans like to set pulls with the extra men. " Europeans prefer R+G (Ramp plus goalie) it because of soccer, that is the only reason. Europe has never had a 3 man goalie table put in bars etc for them to learn to use. Most Americans (the only player base that has been exposed to both styles and given a choice) prefer 3 man goalie.... enough said. |
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I started my post before seeing your newest post. I also prefer Fireball men WAY more than Tornado men, but I was just trying to suggest a way that other people might look at it. If I could use a Fireball man that was longer and could reach further, I would use the longest man possible. Also this would help with the velocity of a shot like a roller because the outside of the man would spin at a higher speed because the man is longer. |
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Dennis a Multi-play table would be a fine special event to run at any Tournament, try including Handle choices also. I prefer the Fireball larger handle over the present Tornado one, although more options to choose from several other styles for all players would be ideal. Having a table allowing for a single Goalie system on one side and the 3 goalie rod for the other side would be interesting to run in any event. Balls that allow for easy banking but roll faster than the present Warrior ball would be a direction to pursue, although banking does require design characteristics of the Table/Foot to be friendly for that inclusion. It would be curious to have table time with your selections on purposed design proto-types for any two different ball type play option available. Time to wait for Fireball new developments as they come through to the player market. :) |
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I’m sorry Will, when I said “younger Tornado players’ I wasn’t thinking of you at all so if you or anyone else reading this doesn’t consider themselves to be part of that demographic then by all means don’t feel that what I said about “younger Tornado Players” applies to you. I would be far more interested in what you thought about the general point I make then whether or not it applies to you or anyone else specifically. When you’re up against a team with great zone defense and a set pull from the 2 isn’t getting through, the goalie may want to get the ball moving around a bit. That is the kind of thing that goes better on the one man goalie tables. On Tornado it is fairly one dimensional, back and forth on the 2 and then shoot. On a one man goalie table all three men, the 2 defensemen and the goalie get involved, the ball really gets flying around, and you get that example I gave you where a top team was regularly passing from their goalie to the 3, not a quick pass to use only when the opponent isn't ready but a regular pass, a tactic you don’t see on Tornado, and you won’t see it at a weekend tourny where a bunch of Tornado players decide to play on Fireball for a few hours, either. The lost tactics and the bad goals are why most players, not everyone but most players, complained bitterly when they had to switch to the three man style for Tornado. Yet interestingly enough when players switch from the three man style to the one man style most players don’t seem to mind. The reason why is what I was trying to get at with my post about younger Tornado players, who have only been playing for about 15 years or less and have only really played/practiced at a high level with the three man goalies. I’m thinking that the people who were repulsed by going to the 3 man setup in the 90’s know something about the game that the less experienced younger players today do not. (I could be wrong) Anyways Spinner says “3 man goalie is 10 times better” and Superfly says “One man goalie is infinitely better” Which tells me this is a gray area and not so black and white. There have been to my knowledge plenty of Tornado tournies in Europe but the table is not popular there. The one man goalie tables are hugely popular over there and far more popular there then the three man style is here so I doubt switching to a one man style could be bad for the sport. What’s interesting is that Tornado makes a 1 man goalie table for the World Cup. Is it true? There are no 3 man goalie tables at the World Cup? What does that tell you about the prefrences of the worlds best players? And why?, check out this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HcXOlfLRk8 After what looks like an unfortunate deflection off the wingman into the goal at 2:02, (the kind of thing that could discourage a sports producer at a TV network from taking Foos too seriously) Fred makes a play that C.A.L. dislikes at 2:21, a pass/shot?!? with the wingman that is not a “direct result of their own controlled action” but rather “a table default response from its setup”, so out of character for Fred and he pays a price. To be honest I just think he was frustrated from having the wingman funnel the ball into the goal at 2:02, and it was in frustration that he made the questionable play with the same wingman at 2:21. I don’t know, I’m proly wrong cause Fred doesn't get frustrated. Roberto Sport is his home table I think. In a chat with Robby Mares about the World cup in France,2009, he was asked What did you think about changing the tornado goalie to a single man? Maybe even the ball? Since that seems to be a mess in the US. "I didn’t think it was a big deal at all. I never missed the wingmen and I never heard anyone complain about it. I think we were dealing with so many adjustments with the other tables, it didn’t even play a factor. I think we’re all used to dealing with different balls when we show up at any tournament. The political reasons for changing to a one-man goalie are related to a completely different question." Maybe the Americans saw the offensive potential of the ramp style in a way that the vast majority of younger Tornado players never have. later, |
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Chaos wrote: "I’m sorry Will, when I said 'younger Tornado players’ I wasn’t thinking of you". You must have been thinking of me then. |
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A few things that I think are false statements: "When you’re up against a team with great zone defense and a set pull from the 2 isn’t getting through, the goalie may want to get the ball moving around a bit. That is the kind of thing that goes better on the one man goalie tables. On Tornado it is fairly one dimensional, back and forth on the 2 and then shoot. On a one man goalie table all three men, the 2 defensemen and the goalie get involved" Having two more men makes it even easier to "get the ball flying around". A lot of players make passes and even have scored goals using the extra men on the goalie rod. It makes way less sense to use the middle goalie man for anything like that because if you shoot and get stuffed its in your net instead of back into the corner. The extra men don't limit you from doing anything offensively, rather they create possiblities that are not possible without them there. "and you won’t see it at a weekend tourny where a bunch of Tornado players decide to play on Fireball for a few hours, either. " Jack Lenty, Rick Martin, Mike "Floppy" Boyle, Simon Edwards and many other players that were at the Fireball tournament I went to must count as credible players with the 1 man goalie system. Rick Martin won the 1977 World Championships on TS Million Dollar Table, and I played against him twice on Fireball at that event. Then you said "What’s interesting is that Tornado makes a 1 man goalie table for the World Cup. Is it true? There are no 3 man goalie tables at the World Cup? What does that tell you about the prefrences of the worlds best players?" This is one of the most ridiculous arguements I have ever heard to be honest. It is true that for the world cup they have limited the tables to 1 man goalie tables. That doesn't say anything about the players preferences, that only shows what the international federation has for preferences. I think anyone who knows anything about the ITSF knows they prefer 1 man goalie. They have specifically stated that because Europeans prefer watching soccer and it has 11 men that foosball should have 11 men also. To me the amount of men on the field in a soccer game does not matter to how I play foosball - I am a huge soccer fan, but foosball is so disconnected from soccer that it isn't relevant. I can see that for a viewing audience in Europe it would be important to standardize the tables so that is the only reason that Tornado made the table, and they were forced to do it against what they wanted to do. This happend very quickly right before the ITSF World Cup in 09 and was greeted with severe amounts of backlash publicly. |
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To prove I'm not making this up here is the thread created once it was annonced that they were changing Tornado to 1 man goalie. http://foosballboard.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2062&highlight=framps The third post was by Ed Geer, a USTSF representative: This change was forced on Tornado By Farid Lunas. Courrington(Tornado's President) would like for everyone to complain directly to the ITSF President. Hopefully, with a enough complaints registered Lunas will stop pressuring Tornado to make this change. You can email him at info@table-soccer.org The fifth post was by Tony Spredeman: I agree... we are going to have a hard enough time adjusting to all of the other tables. We shouldnt have to get used to Tornado. I think they should have waited until after the World cup/championships to do this. It will just be a disadvantage to the North American players. sincerely, tony |
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Yes Will you're right about the way some people can move the ball around with the three man goalie set up. It is incredible to watch. Most people don't do it though because of the danger of deflecting it into your own goal. I could be wrong but that is the way I see it. Beginners especially are scoreing on themselves constantly so I don't know if I would go as far as to say it's easier. For you, Spinner and Garry Burgardt too I think because he didn't mind the wingmen at first and is proly pretty good at using them by now, well you guys do it easy but the rest of us might not want the men there so we can move the ball around a different way. The statement "The extra men don't limit you from doing anything offensively" is not precisely true because some players do feel the wingmen crowd the space they'd like to be moving the ball through. I've played against Jack and Rick and them, I put Rick Marten into losers bracket two weeks before he won worlds. But those guys proly haven't seriously played on a ramp style for at least 15 years so no I wouldn't really consider them all that credible ramp style players and not that there's a huge difference between the way a person plays on one table compared to another. But if you never touched a three man goalie bar for 15 years and then came out to play on one for some money I doubt you would shoot much with those outside guys. (Nice shooting in those two tournies by the way) About the ITSF, forty countries, 500 players, and three man goalie bars can't get any traction. (Whether for TV or whatever there are plenty of players that don't like those outside guys), If the majority of players could use or thought they could use the potential of those wingmen as well as you then players would be screaming for Tornado tables, but they arn't, and of course there are other factors but ... From what Mares said I got the impression that once the americans stopped complaining and started playing they didn't mind the ramp style at all, "no complaints", so why would I want to get the ITSF to allow the three man goalie? Personally I'd be more inclined to try and get Tornado to sell ramp style tables here. All in all it's not a big part of most peoples games, but power to you if you do use the wingmen a lot. I prefer ramps but think it's great to see people using the outside guys. Really the best thing might be to give the players a choice, use combination tables, and we could see if there was a statistical advantage to one style or the other, I would know which one to use and everyone would get what they want. And yes Tim, youngsters like you and Simon are exactly the ones that could benefit from spending more time with the old Rampires. |
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Yes Will you're right about the way some people can move the ball around with the three man goalie set up. It is incredible to watch. Most people don't do it though because of the danger of deflecting it into your own goal. I could be wrong but that is the way I see it. Beginners especially are scoreing on themselves constantly so I don't know if I would go as far as to say it's easier. For you, Spinner and Garry Burgardt too I think because he didn't mind the wingmen at first and is proly pretty good at using them by now, well you guys do it easy but the rest of us might not want the men there so we can move the ball around a different way. The statement "The extra men don't limit you from doing anything offensively" is not precisely true because some players do feel the wingmen crowd the space they'd like to be moving the ball through. I've played against Jack and Rick and them, I put Rick Marten into losers bracket two weeks before he won worlds. But those guys proly haven't seriously played on a ramp style for at least 15 years so no I wouldn't really consider them all that credible ramp style players and not that there's a huge difference between the way a person plays on one table compared to another. But if you never touched a three man goalie bar for 15 years and then came out to play on one for some money I doubt you would shoot much with those outside guys. (Nice shooting in those two tournies by the way) About the ITSF, forty countries, 500 players, and three man goalie bars can't get any traction. (Whether for TV or whatever there are plenty of players that don't like those outside guys), If the majority of players could use or thought they could use the potential of those wingmen as well as you then players would be screaming for Tornado tables, but they arn't, and of course there are other factors but ... From what Mares said I got the impression that once the americans stopped complaining and started playing they didn't mind the ramp style at all, "no complaints", so why would I want to get the ITSF to allow the three man goalie? Personally I'd be more inclined to try and get Tornado to sell ramp style tables here. All in all it's not a big part of most peoples games, but power to you if you do use the wingmen a lot. I prefer ramps but think it's great to see people using the outside guys. Really the best thing might be to give the players a choice, use combination tables, and we could see if there was a statistical advantage to one style or the other, I would know which one to use and everyone would get what they want. And yes Tim, youngsters like you and Simon are exactly the ones that could benefit from spending more time with the old Rampires. |
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Not sure if I caught the gist of this whole thread, but imo, it is much easier for a North American player to adjust to a 1 man tornado table, then to any Euro to ever adjust to a Tornado table period. Playing on a 1 man goalie on Tornado is not that big of an adjustment at all, but you do lose quite a few options, especially in singles. Bonzini aside, most Euro tables are super light, quick, and after playing on them a while, Tornado feels like a tank - I believe this is a major reason why Tornado isn't picking up steam over there. It isn't the man, it's just the natural playing style is so different. It's like Bonzini making a huge splash in the states, it isn't happening. Or why in Ontario, there a shit ton of Fabi players that do not defect to Tornado despite the near presence of it, or the fact that the biggest tour in the US/Can is on that table. |
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